[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Capes and Tights podcast right here on Capes and Tights.com I'm your host, Justin Soderbergh. This episode is once again brought to you by our friends over at Galactic Comics and Collectibles at Galactic Comics and collectibles dot com. This episode is Stephen Barnes. He's a New York Times bestselling Author of over 30 novels in science fiction, horror and suspense. Barnes is also known for writing TV, including the Twilight Zone, Stargate, SG1, Outer Limits, Andromeda, and so much more. Stephen has written Batman comics plus, along with his wife, Tananarive Du, known for the Reformatory, recently wrote the Keeper in the world of comics. Most recently, he authored the book Star Wars Mace Window, the Glass Abyss, which is out now. And that's what we came on to talk to us about for this episode. But before you listen, check us out on Facebook, Twitter, threads, Instagram, Blue sky, all that stuff, as well as over on
[email protected] capes podcast and our website capesandtites.com but this episode is Stephen Barnes, New York Times bestselling author of Star Wars, Mace Windu, the Glass Abyss. Enjoy, everyone.
Welcome to the podcast. Stephen, how are you today?
[00:01:20] Speaker B: I'm doing pretty good. Just starting a new program today to kind of level up my. My mental discipline. But, you know, it's a little scary. But in general, just. It's just chop wood, carry water, man.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Exactly. You know, it's, it's, it's later in the day here. I mean, I'm in Maine. I know it's not, you know, later in the day where you are right now. It's midday, but getting ready at the end of the day. And I thought we'd talk some Star wars here because I'm a big fan of Star Wars, a big fan of Mace Windu, and you're the person behind the latest book featuring Mace Window. But before we start about that, how. What, let's go back a few years. Not too many years here. But what made you want to become a writer? I mean, you can do a little short. I know it's probably a bigger story, but like.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: No, that goes back a lot of years, man. I knew I wanted to be a writer. Well, let's see. I knew I liked telling stories before I was 10, but I didn't consider. And then I knew that some form of entertainment was in my future by the time I graduated high school. But I didn't decide on a career in writing until, like, my second year in college.
Some very specific incidents Made me feel like this looks to me like it might be my best bet.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: And now it's many years later and you're still writing it, so it seems like it was your best bet.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: Well, I don't know if it was my best bet.
It has worked out for me, and I'm very happy and sufficiently successful to have raised a family doing this. So I would say that I was right, that it was a very positive choice. You know, it was going to be tough, but anything else looked like it would be tougher.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: That makes sense to me. I mean, but. But not only are you. You're a writer, you write books, you write tv, you read other stuff, you're professor, you've taught classes, things like that. But you dabble in the world of Star Wars. And Mace Window, the Glass Abyss is not your first Star wars book. Right? I mean, you had no.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: That was the Cestus Deception.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Okay. And that one came out as part of the Clone wars era. Yeah. Yeah.
What did it feel like? I guess I will say a little bit. What did it feel like getting back into the world of writing Star wars again?
[00:03:52] Speaker B: I had. I mean, I had a good time with the Sesterception, but I had a lot more fun with this one. It was also more challenging. I knew that I was.
I knew I was playing with some tropes that would be controversial, that I was going to take this into some directions that were different than some of the other writers had taken it. And I figured that as long as the editors and Lucasfilm and enough fans liked what it was I was doing, I could be.
I could be sanguine with the fact that there were going to be people who were not happy with what I did.
[00:04:35] Speaker A: It makes sense in that sense, too, because as long as there's enough people to like it, I guess that's the.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Yeah, you can't make everybody happy. And I. I was brought in specifically to humanize him.
And so if you ask, why was that necessary, you might touch on some of the territory that I recognized. You know, there were minefields here. How do I cross this? How do I humanize him? And why have people been happy with him as, in many ways, a stick figure, you know, he kills people and barks orders. You know, I've said this, and it's not in the book, but I've said this. That is very clear to me, that fans and the writers could not imagine Mace Windu dancing around his kitchen in his underwear making pancakes. You know, just. That never even occurred to them.
And I. I've known enough people of real power and authority to know that they all have their human side, you know, no matter what their employees think, no matter what, you know, people on the outside think, Everybody's got a chewy center, you know. And so if I know that, then I have to ask the question, how could he be this incredibly powerful Jedi and still a human being? What would that be? What is it that people have missed about him?
And I would not have gone to Lucasfilm saying, let me do this. They came to me and asked me. So I kind of figured, well, they want. Must want me. They must want what it is that I bring to a story. So my primary responsibility. So they were actually kind of three circles. If you're looking at it like a Venn diagram, the one circle is making the fans happy. Okay, to write a good Star wars book. Another circle was to write a good science fiction novel. Now, Star wars is not science fiction. It's science fantasy. So I understand that there are limitations to that. But yet. And still I felt that touching on the, you know, what is the best that I can bring to this? What is. What if I emptied myself out, if I tried my best to do the absolute best book I could possibly do, what would I bring to it? And I can't ignore my interest in and training as a science fiction writer with that. And then the third thing is to write a good Stephen Barnes novel. There are every writer who writes, every artist is partially answering the question, who am I? Anytime that they create something. So to the degree that I am expressing in my work, the world, the way I see it, what is true and what I think of what human beings are, who am I?
There is a commonality. There are some common threads through my writing that have to do with what is the nature of human beings, what is the nature of mastery? I'm really interested in that.
So it was satisfying all three of those circles that I was aiming at. And fingers crossed.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Yeah. You had mentioned, too, on the StarWars.com they posted the whole, hey, we're making this Mace Windu book. Stephen Barnes is writing it, and your quotes back to them. And one of them was that that you're busy with TV and things like that nowadays, that if it's one of those things that there are other products that people approach you with that you're like, yeah, I'm all set. I'm busy. But this is one of the ones you're like, I feel like I have to do this. I feel like I really need to do this.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah, there were some specific questions I had for them in terms of what I could do with the story.
And they gave me the right answers. So I said, okay. I mean, I know I'm a very small cog and a very big machine. I have an opportunity to play in this sandbox. And as long as I am respectful to the fans, you know, making sure that I. I'm holding their hearts gently in my hands is the way I put that.
Then the opportunity to expand what we know about the Jedi and the Force and Mace Windu was very attractive to me. I could see that as being a worthwhile expenditure of my time and energy.
You have a finite amount of it. So it's like, what do you want to accomplish in the world? It wasn't just how many zeros are on the check, although that's always of interest.
It's once the money is spent, how will I feel about what I did to earn it?
[00:09:36] Speaker A: I've talked to many people on the podcast that either have written maybe other Star wars novels in the hyperpod public or comic books. And the other thing about being chosen or asked to do the Mace window story or a Star wars story in general, is it's not as simple as doing your own story. Right? Because, I mean, if you took this and took Mace Windu out of it and put someone else into it, you could do really whatever you wanted. But having to answer to someone like Lucasfilm and Disney and things like that, you have someone to kind of parameters you have to stand in. And so that's good.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: No, I deliberately, you know, in both books, Cestus Deception and Glass Abyss, I created a new planet and then, as rapidly as possible, isolated the lead characters so that I could deal with the feeling of Star wars without being bogged down by the minutia of every single character who we already know and the fans who know this character and this situation and this battle and this a hundred times better than I ever will. It's like I just, I can't catch up with them. You know, I look at the, you know, foot thick Star wars encyclopedia, there's no way I could absorb all this. What I can do is set up a situation where I can hopefully tell a really good story and then trust that the editors in Lucasfilm will supply, will cancel anything I did that is inappropriate and supply some details that I did not. And they actually did that. There are some details in the final book that I didn't know they were going to put in. You know, it's like, it was interesting once it left My hands. I didn't have total control of it anymore.
So no major plot points or anything like that. But there were some facts, like, oh, really? I didn't know that it was fun.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: It is. And I've talked, like I said, people who write intellectual property or other stuff like that and then write their own stuff. It's like there's a positive and negative to both of it. Obviously, you, 20 years ago, got the opportunity to dabble in Star wars universe and again get to do it now, which not very many people. I mean, the list is growing now that we're getting more different material. Books, comics, all that stuff. TV shows. There are more people getting their chance to write Star Wars. But the truth of the matter is, it's a small list. If you go back and think about it, like, the number of people who actually get to play in that playground. And so there's some positives to that, which is that. And the negatives are. Again, you can't do exactly what you want. But I guess what you doing by putting it in a planet that you created and isolating it is that we get to see some characters which. One of the things that stood out to me is not really about the book, but what's in the book. And we get to see some familiar characters, but not, you know, the Skywalker saga, if that makes any sense. Like, we got to see characters we recognize, characters we know. Not a ton, but they're in there.
I love the High Republic stuff. Like, it's phenomenal. It's all new. Like, you know, think about it. Like, there's locations in terminology and things like that that, you know, we see, we recognize, but the characters and things like that are mostly new. And so sometimes it's hard to, like, sink my teeth into it as much as I can about something I already know. And so the Mace Windu book was like, okay, cool. I already have a foundation for this character and for this time in the Star wars universe. I'm going to love this book. And I did. And because of that, I think there was that.
There was a small amount that I said that that rafts me in. That was. Mace Windu is a character that I can picture.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Ask me about that. You can share that with me or you can ask me about it after we. After we stop the recording, you know, in your choice. I'm not shy. You know, I won't answer a question that would damage the franchise or Lucasfilm or anything like that. That's not why I'm here. No, I can promise you That I really cared. I really wanted to do the best job I could.
And I, you know, I've got a finite amount of time in this world to do the things that I have to do. And writing is extraordinarily precious to me. I take it very seriously, but I don't take myself very seriously. So, you know, that book was for guys like you. It wasn't for me. You know, it was what I wanted was to be able to look at your eyes and for you to know that I brought you the best I've got, you know, that I really cared. I love those movies. I'm not as big a fan as you are, I'm sure, but I've seen, except for the first one, I've seen everyone on the day that it opened. You know, I genuinely love Star wars.
And so that responsibility, the ability to play with somebody else's toys, you want to treat them with respect, I hallucinate that I did that. I certainly hope I did well.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: I mean, it all depends on what people like. One thing I always say is that one of the reasons why I feel like the Star wars sequel trilogy isn't as loved as much by certain fans in the Star wars universe is because it's not the Star wars they had pictured in their head. Like, in their head. They had the series going a certain direction and the creators didn't do that. And so to them, it's like.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: I can tell you one thing, I can tell you one thing I think about the sequel trilogy as opposed to the prequel trilogy. I think they deliberately denied the fans something that the fans wanted, which was to see Luke and Leia and Han and Chewie back together. They had a once in a lifetime opportunity to do something extraordinary by showing getting the old team back together and having them on one last hurrah.
And for some reason I don't understand, they decided not to. And I think that was a bad call. But, you know, I still saw it.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: Exactly. And then here's my biggest thing and what I will always say about this book. I just read the Batman resurrection book that came out on the same day as Mace Windu, which is the sequel to the 1989 Batman. And these books, whether they're good or not, I did like Mace Windu, the Glass Abyss. But whether they're good or not, it's another thing based in the Star wars universe that I get to read and enjoy. And so movies, TV shows, books, whatever it may be, if it has the word Star wars on it, I am going to read it and Likely enjoy it to the point where it's supposed to be enjoyed. It's a piece of enjoyment, not entertainment.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: Now, let me ask you a question.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: My hallucination, my guess is that a big thing that Star wars fans love is that they get to dream of being Jedi.
That they get to dream that their courage, their hearts, can make a difference in a world that seems disconnected and often uncaring.
So having spent basically my entire life studying martial arts and shamanic practices and things like that, I put some things into that book that were kind of saying to people, you want this? You want to see how close to this you can get? I can't give you midichlorians, but if you want to know what the internal structure of people who can. Who could function at that level if they did have midichlorians is, I did the best I could to actually create a path there, because I know people of great power, you know, in terms of being warriors and sacred warriors. And there are some interesting commonalities. And I think that Lucas did some amazingly positive things there. He had his fingers on some good stuff.
There are some things that he put into those early movies that I look at them, and I kind of say he was taking the question, what does it take to be really excellent in life? And maybe he had never asked himself the question. He simply was super excellent in life.
And then apply it to the question, say, a monk, a sacred warrior, be in that. In that context.
And I think that he got some stuff right without believing that he did any specific study for it. Anybody who understands mastery in any one of my teachers made the comment, you know, if you understand, if you master anything, you know how to master anything else. Or Musashi Miyamoto Book of Five Rings and Master One. No one thing, no 10,000 things. So if you have achieved extraordinary mastery in any arena of your life, you understand people in any other discipline who have also achieved it. And Jedi would not be separate from that. They just got midichlorians.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: It's a. Yeah, I would say that you grew up. You want to be a Jedi.
I wanted to be in this fantasy world as a whole. I think that what Lucas created with the original trilogy and then with the prequel trilogy. I am a fan of the prequel trilogy. I do like it. I think that there's obviously not all of them are perfect films. I don't know any of them.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: None of them are perfect. No.
[00:19:17] Speaker A: And none of them are like. Were created in the mindset of. There's movies that are created to win awards. Right. Like there are certain movies that like, you could just tell they're.
These are award winning movies. This is what we're going for. These movies were made because they wanted to make some big fun movies that were enjoyed, entertained, entertaining.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: Agree. I think that they may not have been, you know, I think that they, it's an extraordinary mythos and it's a major world mythos now.
And because it has lasted for 40 years or whatever it is, I believe that it's important to ask serious questions about, oh, what is this?
And while maintaining the notion that the primary thing to do is to entertain, what I wanted to do was to write a rip roaring adventure story that had some grounding in what I understand about what is true about this. And I thought that that was the best gift I could give the fans.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: I think you did.
In my opinion, you did. But I still think there's going to be those people out there who a mace window is a polarizing character to a lot of people. And then there's the other side of it where Star wars fans are so stubborn sometimes that they just want to pick apart anything that's not the original movie.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: Yeah, but you know, man, that's, that's just, you know, we love what we love. We have our enthusiasms and we know, you know, probably more about it than some people, some people would consider healthy. That's just the way it is. And I respect that. And you know, somebody who feels like I did not give them what they were looking for there, I apologize. But what I've, what I've seen is primarily people who feel like they really enjoyed it. So I'm grateful for that. But I don't discount people who were looking for something else or who felt that I didn't deliver it, you know, but I'm happy that the majority are happy.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: And I think there's a small amount of people who saw what they saw in the original trilogy or the prequel trilogy of Mace Windu and were like, wait, there's a whole book about this guy who just barks orders, you know what I mean? Like, and so you did the correct. Yes, you did the correct job by humanizing him, adding that. And I think when I talk to people about like the Marvel Cinematic Universe and those movies and I say, hey, they're funny. But also, you know, comic book movies that have action and adventure and fights in it and superpowers, that there's more to the world that these people live in when like Iron man isn't always on, like, this is going to tell jokes he's going to. He's going to. Honestly, what I've said to some people, I'm like, it's okay to laugh at a funeral. Like, it's such a bad thing, but, like, there's truth to the point that not everything needs to be fully stoic and serious. Yes. There's right moments, like, you know, don't. There's certain laughs. You don't want to laugh.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: Laughter is a real gift. I mean, laughter is a release of tension, and it's one of the things that helps human beings become sane, stay sane, because otherwise you could be overwhelmed with existential dread. The knowledge that the grave awaits all of us. What do you do with that? You know, how do you. How do you acknowledge that and then still stay in the state in the present moment and enjoy playing with puppies and kittens?
You can lose. You can miss your entire life by getting too serious about the negative things in life.
At the same time, it's important to take things seriously enough to deal with them.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: But anyway, you must have rewatched some of the stuff. Do you take in a lot of East Window stuff? Like, you watch, like, Clone wars, but did you watch that, like, as you were preparing to write this novel, too?
[00:22:59] Speaker B: I watched the original movies over and over again. You know, during the entire time that I was working on this, I'd used it as a chance to just bury myself in Star wars. Every day I was watching Star wars, and I felt that that was the best thing I could do. I did not feel I wanted to honor the characters as Lucas envisioned them.
And because there was not a lot of time with Mace Windu, you hire somebody like Sam Jackson. That's what stars are. They're people who bring a certain amount of gravitas, you know, with them, or at least identification with them, so that just by looking at the star, you're filling in backstory, you have a sense of who this person is going to be. So I did not feel. I felt an obligation to the fans. I felt an obligation to Lucasfilm. I felt an obligation to myself. I did not feel an obligation to the other writers who, you know, who said what they said.
I look at storytelling as being a lot like being a reporter where there's an event that actually happened. And your responsibility is to try to get to the core of the event, not necessarily to read what other reporters wrote about the event.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: It makes sense. And with what you're writing, and you're writing, you wrote a story that's based on a planet that you created. And it's so isolated. You're not really going to cross over with other parts of stories that have been told. Exactly. So there's no really need historicity.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: The historicity is important. Once something is accepted as canon, it happened. But what somebody said about the characters internal states, they're guessing, you know, if they're reporters, you know, we don't know about that. So I felt like I had more flexibility there. So I needed to create a character who could do all the things that we've seen Mace Windu do, but simultaneously also be a human being with human hopes and needs and drives and fears. And I think that that allows the reader to actually make a path from where they are to being, frankly, a Jedi. You know, some midichlorians, you know, how can I be the very best I can be? I think that that's what people go to Star wars for their stories of heroes. There are stories of people who are bigger than life, who could do amazing things. And I think in all of our hearts, that's what we really want. We feel like somewhere inside us there's a part of me that can do amazing things. You know, there's. My heart is important, my spirit is important. And I have an obligation to that.
I feel like I have a total obligation to that.
[00:25:44] Speaker A: And I guess my overall arching questions. And you answered them mostly, which would be, what did you set out, what you set out to achieve by writing this Mace Windu novel? Did you do that? In the end, do you feel confident that exactly what you started this novel out to be is what the finishing product was?
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Yes, to the limit of my capacity as a writer. You know, I do the best I can.
I bring everything I have to it. And I'm constantly trying to learn. It's not for me to say whether I pulled it off, but when I listen to what people say about it and how they react and what they extracted from it, my sense is, okay.
[00:26:21] Speaker A: They got it, that's perfect.
And you know, this is a special project. This was a project that you said that you were busy with TV right now and things like that, and you decided to write this novel. Does that mean that there's still a chance that there's another Star wars novel in you? Or are you basically saying, I have.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: An idea that I will tell you about after we're off the air? I doubt I'll get the chance to do it.
You know, I can tell you the perfect scenario is Lucasfilm wants me to do another one and I'm too busy to write it.
That would be the perfect.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: Yes, that's. That, that's. That's true. I mean, there is.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: There is a world in which. In which I would. I mean, I've met Sam Jackson and at a party once, and he was just about the coolest human being I've ever met in my life. So the idea of if he read the book and loved it and wanted me to do another one, I would, because I have hero worship just like everybody else.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: That's amazing. I absolutely love that. But I really appreciate you taking the time out to talk about Star Wars, Mace Windu and all of the above here on the podcast. You're doing great work and I'm excited to see your wife. Tananarive has a new comic or has a comic book coming out soon, too, I believe. Is that correct?
[00:27:37] Speaker B: I believe she does, yes.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: So I'm excited for that too.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: She's a force in nature.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Yes. The reformatory was freaking amazing, I'll tell you that much.
It hurt to read, but also was enjoying.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: Took her. Took her seven years to write.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: So it was a kitty.
[00:27:54] Speaker A: Yes. Be pretty talented household there. So I'm excited to see what comes next from both of you. Thank you. Enjoying it. That is. That is if this episode ever does come out and the world does exist after tomorrow. But we're not gonna.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Oh, it will in this. We. We'll talk for a minute after we're off.
[00:28:10] Speaker A: It sounds good. Thank you, Stephen.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: You bet.
