Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Capes and Tights podcast right here on Capesandtights.com, i'm your host, Justin Soderbergh. This episode is once again brought to you by our friends over at Galactic Comics and Collectibles at galactic comics and collectibles.com this episode we welcome screenwriter, comic book writer, author and producer Eric Heisserer to the podcast to discuss his new book, Simultaneous. But Eric is known for his screenwriting credits on Arrival, which was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Adapted Screenplay, his adaptation of Bird Box for Netflix, Final Destination 5, the Thing, a Nightmare on Elm Street, Bloodshot, and so much more. He's also known in the comic book world for his book comic Secret Weapons over at Valiant. But his debut novel, Simultaneous hits shelves on October 28th from Flatiron Books. It's phenomenal, so you should read it. But before you listen, check out us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, threads, Blue sky, all those places you can rate review, subscribe over on Spotify or Apple Podcasts wherever you find your podcast, as well as you can watch this version on YouTube. And as always, you can visit CapesandTights.com for so much more, including a review of Simultaneous, the physical novel and the audiobook that I was had a chance to read as well. So this is Eric Heisserer, screenwriter and author, comic book writer. All that stuff right here on the Capes and Tights podcast. Enjoy everyone.
Welcome to the podcast. Eric, how are you today?
[00:01:27] Speaker B: I'm doing well. How are you doing?
[00:01:29] Speaker A: I'm doing. I'm doing great. I'm doing really well. I had a little long weekend, visited the parents. I live in Maine. We went to Connecticut, went to a book fair in Massachusetts, the Spooktastic Book Fair down there, which is pretty cool, had about 60 authors at it, which was really awesome. I tend to do these interviews a lot and it's all virtual. So these book fairs come around. It's kind of cool. Cause you actually get a chance to go and actually shake hands and meet some of these people.
So it's actually kind of cool. So like four or five people who have and guests on the podcast were actually there. So we actually got to hang out for a little bit, which is pretty cool.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: I think Josh Malerman actually went to Spooktastic Book Fair at one point in time.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Yes, I think last year, this year Paul Tremblay was there and Christopher Golden, a couple of people. Brian McCauley from Arizona, who just had his book Breathe In, Bleed out came out. So it was really kind of cool to say hi and shake hands and hang out a little bit. And it's the third annual one, I guess it's at the Framingham Public Library in Massachusetts, which is really cool. But yeah, it's a, it's about a three hour drive from my house, but it's worth it. Like I said, it's. It's cool to see people on these, in these. I go to a lot of comic cons, but, like, going to these book fairs is really kind of cool. It's a little interesting to see the wide variety of people who read books. And that was a horror book con. But, like, in general, it's kind of cool.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: It's a different vibe from comic Cons.
[00:02:48] Speaker A: It's completely different vibes. And it is, you know, at Comic Con, you see authors at it. Like, obviously you have a comic, you know, writing history and so you could see yourself there. But also your screenwriting brings you to comic conventions a lot of times and actors and all that stuff. Whereas book fairs, it seems like it was publishers and authors. There was like, there's no, like, you know, you know, Josh Malerman's not over there being like, my book was made into a movie and so you're there kind of thing. It's, it's, it's the regional source material mostly, and publishers, which is kind of cool. You know what some comic conventions are trying to get to a little bit here and there, trying to go back to the old days and just do, you know, comic creators at these things? But, yeah, but it was fun. So, I mean, it's a little different here in New England. Starting to become fall. I'm in pretty good mood for that. So I'm ready for it.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: Spooky season. Bring it on.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Exactly. But, yeah, we're here. You know, it's funny, I discussed with Flatiron about having you come on the podcast when they sent me an email saying your book was coming out. And one of the things I wrote in my review, which was, there's so many people that have new things coming out.
A lot of times from different directions, I'm getting pinged.
And when you see a book and you're like, okay, the description sounds pretty good. But then when you have a tracker, a proven track record of other things you've done that I am a fan of. So whether it be other novels that someone's written or movies or things like that, I'm like, okay, I'll give it a shot. I'm glad I took the shot because you Know what? I read it in Physical Arc Trade. And then when it came up on NetGalley, I actually was able to listen to the audiobook as well again and read it again, which was fantastic because I'm a huge fan of Ray Porter. He was one of the narrators. Ray has also narrated Project Hail Mary, which was a phenomenal audiobook. And so it was a bonus on that side for sure. But I'm glad I did. So we're here to talk simultaneous, but obviously other things will pop in here and there with your comic book history and your movies.
What's it like? You're getting close here, too. I mean, you're not too far off from release date. Is it the same as when a movie's going into the theater, or is it different?
[00:04:57] Speaker B: No, this is definitely a different vibe. You know, it's like imposter syndrome has returned. You know, in a weird way, I think part of it is because I have lived so long in the film industry that, you know, when these dates show up, you are with a crowd of others. You are with a director, producers and cast. And the cast get all the questions. Occasionally you get one random thing about, you know, how it was to adapt X or Y.
And then. So there's this. There's a sense of, particularly from the writing side of things on screenwriting, the sense of, like, anonymity.
Weirdly, you know, you don't get. Get much recognition. You get a lot of blame, but, you know, you don't really be on that. And. And that's. And that's fine. That comes with the territory. It is absolutely a collaborative medium. And essentially my job on the screenwriting front is to write an instruction manual for the final product. You're writing something that essentially is a. A transitionary document.
It.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: It. It's. Yeah, I can see that. But also, I was just at this spooktastic thing, and they did a panel with five authors, and they were talking about.
Ronald Malfi was on it and Chris Painter.
They were talking about what's different about writing a song or something like that and listening and playing it for the first time for a crowd, versus, like, your first. Your book comes out, hits the crowd. He says the writing the book thing is a little less of a direct impact on you because when you write a song, you play it over and over and over against live audience, over and over and over. So you don't get. You get the first reaction from a lot of people over and over again. And if they don't like it, you feel it over and over.
So I can see that similar with a movie in a sense that you get this first and it's quicker, I think, you know, when you write a book, some people, like myself, if you wrote a book and I'm a big fan of yours, I'm going to read the book the first week it comes out. And then some people don't read it for three or four years from now. Whereas like most, a lot of more people are probably going to see Arrival for Per Se on opening night that are reading your book the publishing week. They may buy it the first week, but there's a lot less people probably reading it right that week and getting direct impact from it.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: Yeah, good point. Yeah. So the sort of like the shelf life of those just faster in film and TV both, you know, they're on to the next thing, which is pretty cool.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: But yeah, I mean, people must ask you all the time, obviously. I think I watched a couple little clips here and there, like, obviously, what's it like to adapt someone else's thing and so on and so forth. And I kind of want to spin that a little on the other side as you have adapted, obviously we talked Bird Box, Josh Balaman's book Arrivals and Adaption.
Bloodshot is not a direct adaption, but it's adaption of another character is you're starting from the ground up with Simultaneous. This is your story. This is your thing also. You can't blame that on anybody else.
Not that you would with your screenwriting, but this is you. If no one likes this book, Eric, it's you.
I mean, is that different? Does that make a lot your brain look work a little bit different than adapting.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: A little bit?
You know, I would say the, the reason I got into screenwriting is, for lack of a better word, stubbornness.
My, my first publishing gig was in tabletop role playing games. I wrote for the cyberpunk game at R. Talsorian. And I submitted, after having a couple of successes there, I submitted something that was a scenario that I thought would be good to be added to a new source book as a sort of an adventure for a group. And I got a rejection. And the rejection was, you made something too linear for a game scenario. This is a movie. And I was like, well, then it's a movie. And then, you know, I went out and bought Final Draft and like, you know, went to Barnes and Noble and picked up screenplays that you could, that you could buy at the time.
And then I just started it that way.
So Simultaneous has a similar origin story in That I had originally envisioned it as a. As a series and went and sort of pitched my heart after that. And one of the rejections I got from that was, like, this isn't a show or a movie. I don't think this is even a story, Eric.
And I was like, oh, oh, it is now.
And whether it is or not, but we'll find out. But that was really the motivation that got me to write the note.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: And that's funny, as you mentioned, now rpg part of it, you see, you have comic book writing, you've screenwriting. Now you're an author, you have rpg.
Is it because you're. You're finding the right avenue to put these things in? Like you mentioned, this was a screenplay. Now it's a novel. Or is it? You just get bored, but you're like, it's fun to be in these different avenues and places.
[00:09:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It's. It's always educational. There's something that you can learn from each of them that helps you be, you know, a better storyteller overall. But also, like, I can learn things that make me a better screenwriter as soon as I hop over to a different medium or a different genre. You know, it's the phrase that I. I heard that, like, seems appropriate is. It's sharpening the saw. You know, how can I. How can I better myself? And I'm. I'm. I will reach a plateau if I just do the same thing over and over again. So, you know, taking swings in other spaces. And by the way, I've adapted enough people. It's. It feels like I should be in their shoes at some point.
Oh, this is how it is to be on this side of the fence. Okay.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: I mean, it's true. I mean, I've talked to a couple different people recently. I mean, David Ian McKendree and Rebecca McKendree, who worked on Glorious and a couple other things, they're doing a lot of their screenplays now as graphic novels or comics. And part of it is they have these stories. Simultaneous is probably one of those stories that you really want to tell. And if it's not going anywhere as a screenplay, maybe it's time to find a different avenue. Was novel. I mean, obviously you have a history in writing comics as well. Was a novel the next thing, or did you discuss the idea of possibly making it a comic book, too instead?
[00:11:04] Speaker B: The novel was really the next step for me. I'd worked in comics a lot, and I still remain very good friends with Dinesh Sandasani, who now has his own comic bad idea. And there was possibility that I could go gone that way with it. But this felt like it needed sort of a literary real estate to, to really stretch out and, and, and help describe some of the things there that I think would have been a little more complicated for me to convey to a comic book artist.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: And I understand that. I mean, there's like, I read it not in quick succession, but like I read, you know, quicker than I normally would reread something, reading it in, you know, physical novel and audiobook. And there's some things I even missed, you know, from time to time. So there is a lot of impact packed into this, into this novel, which is not a super long novel. It's a pretty good, that's perfect length in my opinion. Honestly.
There was someone at the show was like, oh, my next book's a thousand pages. I'm like, you got, I'm checked out. Sorry, you got something else, Maybe an audiobook if I want to take a month to listen to it. But I'm like, I'm already checked out. Sorry. But no, it's that length. It does make sense. And you find it funny. I mean, you work in the world of screenwriting in Hollywood, so do you find it funny if all of a sudden I know where someone now wants to adapt it into a movie after you've worked so hard to make it into something.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: That, you know, that is the irony of this business is that, you know, nobody wants it until it's a different thing and then now everybody wants it.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: It's true. I mean, but. But I also think there's a little bit of like you are now able to tell.
You know, I've heard other screenwriters who are authors say these things too. Like, it's like screenwriting is, you know, showing or telling, whereas like authoring, writing a novel is like showing and telling. And you have to do both in this thing and describing that. Do find that it's also in Hollywood or in anything when they adapt it into something else. It's also proven, like, if it sells really well and does really well and people like the story now, it's a little bit easier to take a risk on it than potentially a brand new screenplay that no one's heard of.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of decision making in Hollywood is like fear based. You know, what they need is that insurance policy and that is source material. Like if it's IP already, that means that somebody else took a chance on it first and so it's a little easier for them to digest.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: It'S. True. I find that way it's pretty cool. And I also like the. For all of us who potentially have read the thing first, like, we read the book first and then you see it on screen. It's kind of. You got like a whole built in audience already for us fans reading it as well. I can't wait to see how someone's done that.
If this does go further than that, are you like, I want to write the screenplay or is this one of those ones where you're like, I'll let someone else, you know, I'll work with someone. But it's okay if a studio wants someone else to write the screenplay.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: I mean, we'll see. I mean, if the plants align and I can write it. I would absolutely love to write it. Of course, like, I know all the spaces. You know, I know where these characters are and where they go. However, you know, I tend to have a fairly full dance card. So it may just be that I'm, you know, shepherding as producer and a good friend of mine comes in to write it for me.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Well, I'm guessing you go into this though, like, you think now, Simultaneous is a book. Like, that's what it is now. It lives as a book. October 28th, it comes out on the shelves. It will be a book. And no matter what happens from this point out, you have your ability to tell the story. If someone wants to read it, wants to live in this story, they have a place to do that. And so that probably, I'm guessing that's your mindset now. Like, awesome. I love to see beyond the set and making this movie, this into a movie and seeing these people, you know, do what they do in the book on the screen. But it's a book now. It's what it is, right? Yeah, that's, that's, you know, how it is and that's how it's going to be, which is great. And I believe in that. So simultaneous comes out October 28th from Flatiron Books. I'm guessing you pitched this around to a few people in submission and someone picked it up or they approached you saying, do you have anything that you'd like to put into book format?
[00:15:21] Speaker B: I had come from a trip to Japan where I spoke with rights holders of various manga properties and light novels. And I had such a productive session. I love Japan.
It was a really, it was a really positive trip. So I came back from that with the idea that, well, you know, I could write Simultaneous first as a. As a light novel. That's more in like, the 55,000 word range, so it would be shorter than what the novel is now.
But I thought maybe this is a way to tell a story. Like, Eastern culture is a little bit more accepting and embracing reincarnation.
So there was a world where, like, that would be. Would be my path to publication.
And. And I think I. I said that to myself also as a way to get me to start writing, because writing a full novel felt very daunting.
I was like, well, I mean, if it's only this many, I can do this. Like, you know, I had an armload of light novels I brought back with me, and I'm like, okay, this is. This is manageable. And so I started that, and I had finished a draft of that that got a little bit larger than an actual light novel by the time I hit the end of it. And I received an email from Zach, who is the editor at Flatiron, who said, hey, Eric, I know you worked with Leigh Bardugo on this thing. And so I got your email.
I have a nonfiction book about sci fi films that released in 1983 that I'd love to see if you would give a blurb for it.
Put something on the dust jacket. I'm like, sure. And I read it. And so when I came back with the blurb, I was like, by the.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Way.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: I have something finished here. Do you want to take a look at. He's like, well, of course I do.
And he got back to me and says, we want to put some more meat on the bones here.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: But, yes, I love that too, because it's like, it's the. No pressure, Zach, but I have something for you.
It's the same thing. We mentioned this book fair. It's like you're talking to one author, and the other author's kind of like, talking to you on the table next to you. And, like, my book's about this, too. And then the guy looks at me and goes, I want to tell you, no pressure to buy my book. I was just having a conversation, like, saying, like, no pressure, Jack. I got something. But, like, if you want to look at it, it's great.
And that's great. I mean, if. If they're sure they get enough that they would have come back. And then, like, I'm sorry, Eric, this is not what we want, and move on. But, yeah, so they're not like, because you did a blurb. There's enough blurbs out there. They didn't give you a book because you did a blurb. I'll tell you that.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Much, it's true.
But it was an opportunity for me to like essentially do like you said at the book fair where I just like switch over.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: By the way, I'm gonna leave this here for you and you know, you take a look at it if you want, if not. But yeah, it's a fun. So I could read the whole description, which is a little bit long, but do you have like an elevator pitch? I hate that word, but like you have an elevator pitch and explain to people what simultaneous really is.
[00:18:18] Speaker B: I guess another reason why it's novel is that I don't have a very good elevator pitch. You know, it doesn't lend itself to something that's going to be done briefly. You know, essentially it's a two hander, which again is like a TV term or this industry. However, you know, one of the two core characters is named Grant and he is a federal agent with a department, a bureau called Predictive Analytics.
And they emerged out of 911 when there were a handful of people out there saying that they had prophesied the towers would fall. And some of the federal government was like, we should check in to see if these people are terrorists. Because either they knew ahead of time because they were involved in it, or they're charlatans either way.
And that department sort of became a catch all for anybody who would start to like prophesize that something terrible was going to happen whether or not it did.
And he is set to investigate a case where somebody made a 911 call about something that would happen the next morning and it came true. And that puts them at the door of the other character who's sort of the second lead in this. Sarah, whom he finds is not just a therapist, but she's specifically a past life hypnoregression therapist. And it is the discovery that she has made that she shares with him that throws us into a really wild ride.
I'll just put it that way.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: It is a wild ride. And it's also like, I don't know, I just think that having to explain to people Sarah's situation or Grant trying to explain these things to people and not seem like you're crazy, but also believing and not really sure if you believe at one point and so on and so forth, that whole thing made me go putting myself in the shoes of those people, how would I act? Or both sides, both the person you're trying to explain to or the person you're trying to explain going, I think I believe this, but I'm not sure. Like as you're younger in your. In grade school and you're trying to explain Santa to someone.
It's like, it doesn't make any sense. Like, my son's still like, he's four. He's like, so that chimp. We have a fireplace, but it's not one that Santa Claus can come down. He's like kind of believing it, but he's also second guessing himself. That's what I felt like sometimes in this book. But yeah, it was a wild ride.
I had like, not really X Files vibes, but like the fringe of X Files vibes. Like, it was like a specific episode of X Files where you had this, like, there's someone higher up who kind of has your back but also has to do their job kind of thing. And all that stuff. Like, that was really cool to me. And it was. I'm a big horror person, so, like Bird Box from Josh Melloman. Great book. And so, you know, those kind of stories are my thing. This was more. Is it sci fi? Would you consider this sci fi?
[00:21:06] Speaker B: You know, is sci fi a jazz? Yeah, yeah. You know, I would say that this is more sort of a.
In spirit akin to early Dean Koontz.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, Yep, I can see that for sure.
So I mean, thriller, sci fi, thriller, you know, and it's funny. Nowadays it's like you can't just be like, this is a thriller. It's like if you look on Goodreads or all the other places, there's like 17 different genres that it actually falls into. And that's for most books nowadays. Unless it's like straight ahead, like slasher. They're like, oh, it's horror.
Everything else is like some sort of like, thing on it. But thriller, you know, sci fi, mystery, suspense is listed as one of them. Speculative fiction.
So, yeah, so I can see all that. But like, so. So it wouldn't be, like I said off the top, it's not a novel that I don't think I would immediately jump into, but because of the fact that, you know, so focused on the horror side of things that it wouldn't have jumped into that, like that list of books that I was looking at, but getting that ping from Flatiron saying, hey, are you interested? And then again, your history and writing.
I really want to. I want to read this thing. But what also makes it cool is that my wife is not into horror books. And so it's one of those things that's a book that I really like that I can now go to her and be like, hey, Now. Now you should read this book because of that. She can't do that to me because she's reading Emily Henry and, like, you know, your romance novels. I'm not saying they're bad. Bad writers, bad authors. I just don't get into romance novels. And so, like, she can't share that with me. So she has her thing, I have my thing. And now we have some of these things that are kind of like, that live in the middle of something that have this, you know, part of it, which is really cool. And I love that about it, was more like it was fun instead of being scary.
And that's. That's sometimes where I'm like, why do I do this to myself? Why am I reading here in the. With a. With a bright light on right now? Because I'm afraid of a Haunte House story. And this is like. And then it also makes you think that it's. It's one of the reasons why, when I went and saw Paranormal Activity for the first time, was this could be real. Like, as you're watching this film, it's so like, if you have a tiniest belief in the paranormal, this is like the whole film up until basically the last scene, in my opinion, that that whole thing looked like it could be real.
And then, you know, and then you walk. I got out in my car. I'm getting my car, Someone's walking behind the window, and I'm like, jumping because of that. This is one of those kind of books, too, where it's like, there's a lot of this that go on to it. You're like. Makes you think. It makes you go, wow. If you would just stretch your imagination, stretch your. Broaden your mind a little bit. It's like, this could be real. And I love that about it. And it was like, you know, it's one of those things that made me think. And again, going. Able to read it again, an audiobook, makes you think even more. And it was such an enjoyable experience that you do translate. You're very good at writing across the board. How about that? Is that good for you? You want me to say that out here? You want your head to get bigger here?
[00:24:08] Speaker B: I think I needed to hear that. Like, I haven't spoken to anybody really, who's read it yet. So, like, this is. This is. You're my first test audience who hears the song that I'm performing live.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. And that's the thing, too. I think that you are. I mean, there is a cinematic feel to it, too, which is great.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Which.
[00:24:24] Speaker A: Which is obvious. I mean, it's probably hard to not get that to, you know, come out of your body and into this. You know, this thing you're writing with your background, you know, you write movies. So, like, you have to. You have to really pretty much shut off a part of your brain to be able to say, like, this is not. Have a cinematic feel to it, at least, but that would reach more people that way.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say to that real quick that. That was the main note that I got from my editor on the early drafts. He was like, what's. What's going on with. With Grant here? What's. What's Sarah thinking was doing here? I'm like, well, where's the camera? And he's like, eric, don't.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: No, look at that.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: No.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: The camera is in the box still. It is not open. It's not out. We're not doing that right now. But, I mean, there's comics or. I've talked to people who write comics or books or things like that that are also screenwriters or directors or movie makers, filmmakers that. There is a. There's a crossover of it, though. Like, as long as you're not, like, if you're a comic book writer and you're going to write books and you don't explain what's going on in your panel, then that's obviously gonna be a problem because you're relying a lot in a comic book on the artist to help explain what's going on. And you're just doing the voice and talking and describing, you know, talking to each other. Whereas in a book, you had to have to do both. Grant walks across the room, sees the window open. If in a comic book you see the window open, or in a movie you see the window open. So you have to do a little bit more about that so that I can understand. But, yeah, it has this. I don't know. I think it hits a broader audience, though, when it has slight bit of cinematography on or cinematic, I should say, in it. Because there's a lot of people who watch movies who don't read books.
I'll tell you that right now. I'll tell you. You went the kind of the opposite. You have more eyes are gonna see Arrival than are gonna see this book, in a sense, because more people watch movies, but that's the truth. And so if it has that little bit of cinematic feel to it, you might hit a broader audience, but not too much. Like I said, your editor's notes are probably right.
Yeah, it's true, though. I mean, it's, you know, I don't want to get. It's one of those books too, that you can't. I was trying to explain. Did you see the movie Companion?
[00:26:23] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: I was trying to explain that to someone and it was almost impossible because there's like the actual, like the 30% through the twist that hits that really goes, oh, my God, it ruins the movie. If you explain that to someone, like the beginning of the movie when they're driving up to the house, you'd be like, I know what's going to happen.
And after that point, shit just ensues and it's just crazy. But like, some of this is the same thing. I think in here, if you explain too much of what's going on, you kind of put the cart before the horse and now you're. You're trying to be like, oh, I know what's going to happen kind of thing. So most books you can spoil by talking too much about it. But I also feel like if you don't, if you talk too much about this book, it spoils it even worse than some other books. Do you agree on that? Like, I agree. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
[00:27:06] Speaker B: You can go down a rabbit hole and like, you can give away too much. And also you can lose your audience very quickly as well because they're still like back on point two.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: And that's. I think some of the reading it twice is great.
I don't get that chance that often to listen to audiobooks before I talk to someone because a lot of times I don't listen to the audiobook until after the book is released. And I like to chat with the person somewhat before it so that we get a little bit of people going, oh, I want to pre order that. And that benefit of here being able to read it physically and listen to it in audiobook form format. I was a little bit more immersed with the audiobook format too. Plus I was able to understand a little bit more some places where I'm like, what happened there? I was just reading it again allowed me to go, ah, that's what happened there.
They died.
I've done that before, honestly, in a book where I've skimmed to it too fast, where I was like, wait, didn't I die in the first chapter?
But no, it adds to that. So maybe it is one of those books in general that you read multiple times to get more out of it. I don't know. I just. I did.
Maybe someone has to, because they have to buy it physically and they have to buy an audiobook. We're just telling them, just trying to get more sales for you.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: I like this plan. Yeah. This is what you have to do. Yeah.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: Hardcover, softcover audiobook. You have to buy the, you know, I don't know, large print format, too. Just, you know, your eyes are tired. No.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: Each version gives you a puzzle piece.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: In this experience, though, of writing. So it takes time to write a novel, as you probably learned in this thing. Does this experience. Was it a positive experience? I mean, that shouldn't weigh on whether or not someone should buy the book. I think the book's amazing.
Someone could have an absolute horrible time writing the book, and the book still be amazing. But was the experience itself enjoyable compared to screenwriting or comic book writing or RPG writing?
[00:28:57] Speaker B: Very much so, yeah. I mean, I would say that it is comparable to comic book writing in that, again, there's just very few people involved in the process.
And, you know, there's. I think there. There's one more new ingredient of a comic book artist in that medium.
But in the novel, it really is just you kicking the tires on. On your own story, on your own creation, and you have the editor to bounce things off of and to. To gut check you on some things, but you really get to build the. The.
The structure the way you want it to. You build the story the way you want it, and that's very helpful. Like the number of times in screenwriting when I feel like I'm being hired as an architect, and then I get in and I realize that I'm just given a hard hat and being told what to do.
It's. It's. It's really disappointing. It's really depressing. The number of times that I have gotten, essentially, from a studio exec, the thing of, like, all right, put a toilet in the kitchen, Eric. And I'm like, that's not where the.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: Why are we.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: No, this doesn't work. And he's like, no, whatever.
[00:30:02] Speaker A: Make it work. Make it work.
[00:30:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's why we're paying you, buddy.
[00:30:06] Speaker A: But do you find that with this writing, the novel, how much changed? So you have a screenplay, you have an idea in your head, and now you have this book that's 300 pages or so. What change is there? Not what changed? How much changed from your original inception of the story to the final print?
[00:30:25] Speaker B: The novel gave me the time in the space to, like, find things that I latched on to more and that. And sort of discard ideas or little elements of story that I realized really weren't as interesting or didn't go anywhere for me. And I think that's the same process that would have happened were I to be given a chance to write this as a feature film or were we to develop it further as a series somewhere, then I would have found a lot of these things along the way, but it would have been through a much larger committee, and there would be other agendas put upon it. You know, there would be a situation of, like, we like the show, Eric, but the reason we bought it is that we want it to be primarily a X or a Y show.
And. And we need you to fit this actor in for it because, you know, we want to keep them in our employ because the next season of the hit show that they're on will happen in a while, and so we don't want to lose them.
And just the weird pieces. It feels a little bit like Iron Chef, where it's like, here are the ingredients to make your thing. Like, well, I can't make my thing. All right, sure. We'll figure it. Yeah, so that. That's the main difference. And so I feel like enough changed that it feels different from the.
The thing that I was originally pitching, but it wasn't. But it's not different enough that I think a lot of people will be able to tell.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: That's. That's pretty cool. I mean, do you feel like that you. That there's places. Obviously there's a budget when you go to make a movie, right? You know, I have $50 million to make this movie, and you have to fit everything in that a book. It's like the budget really is, you know, making the book, like. So it's like the number of pages, really. And there's a couple other things that obviously go into that as well. But, like, there's not a lot of, like, you know, to make someone drive from Maine to California is free in the book as long as you don't go over the pages that you're. You're asked to be done, or so on and so forth. So did you expand on anything that maybe would have been like, well, we really couldn't have done this in a TV series because the budget would have been constrained by doing this. Or did you. Because of the fact that maybe you'd like to see it on screen one day, you kind of, like, kept it in a spot where it'd be easier to adapt in the future?
[00:32:42] Speaker B: I think the favor I did myself was in the novel, I didn't ever think about budget. I just didn't have it like, inhabit my. My brain. And just kept writing with a story, feeling that this the one time where I don't need to worry about it.
I don't think it's a case of me feeling like I had a limited budget, though. I feel like it just had to be true to the story as I was telling it.
I guess if I look at it now, I'm like, how many locations am I in? You know.
You know, how. How wild is the. You know, the. The way I describe Sarah pulling somebody into their previous life.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:22] Speaker B: Has some cinematic elements to it that would be, you know, catnip for a director, but could also raise the budget if you do that, you know, imaginatively.
But beyond that, I don't think it's too terribly taxing, which I'm glad that's.
[00:33:36] Speaker A: That's your answer. That. That it was basically. You're writing the novel for. Basically writing the novel, which is great, because that's what those people who want to read the novel and don't care about anything else want to hear. We don't want to hear that. You know, I've heard people say that I only other that you'd almost tell by reading their stuff that it was created with the intention of adaptation. Like, you can just see that it's written that way, or characters drawn a certain way because they want the character to be cast as a certain character, so on and so forth, and it's okay. Like, we get it. You were writing a comic book or writing a book because you want it to be a movie or a TV show. I get it. But this didn't feel that way. Like I said, it had that feeling of, if you like movies, this might work for you. If you're not. If you're not sure if you like this thriller, sci fi, you know, mystery part of it.
But yeah, I'm glad that was your answer. Not like. No, I thought exactly about that, because I want it to be a movie someday. And then it becomes like, it has less of a, you know, a novel, more of a gateway into something else.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: Here's another secret, Justin, I gotta tell you. Like, I don't know what is good, what is really happening in my. In this. In Hollywood right now. Like, this industry is scaring me, and I don't know what it's gonna look like in a couple years. It may be that novels is the only place where I could get work in the future. So this needs to, like, have some modicum of success for me. Like, I need to figure out how to make this Work, which I'm glad.
[00:34:59] Speaker A: Because that to me just says you like to write. It seems like you have a passion for writing stories and telling stories. And when you write your name out, it's, Eric, you're a screenwriter, comic book writer, author, producer. It's like all these things when really you're a storyteller in that sense, that you want your stories that you have percolating in your brain to be out somewhere. And if novels or comic books, whatever, fits perfectly in that sense. I mean, I've talked to other authors who write mostly prose novels, but then there was this one idea was like, no, it's a graphic novel. Because I felt like that's the venue it needed to be in. And you'll probably will have that. Like, you'll have a story that you're like, oh, I might be able to make that in a novel. You're like, nope, I got to keep that on the filing cabinet. Because that is a movie. It's what it is. It has to be that way, and so on and so forth. But, like, it sounds like you have a passion for writing stories. And that's what I got out of this. If I never. I got into it knowing that you write movies, but if I never knew you wrote movies, I wouldn't have said that you're not a good author. And that's what's cool about this. Like, you. Are you talented in your own right for this thing. So I will want people to know that. That this is a book. You're an author. We're talking as author in podcaster right now, not as a screenwriter and podcaster, because this is not a screen. Screen, you know, screenwriting. So, yeah, that, that, that. I'm glad you said that, too. It's. You're. You're passionate about it, which is pretty cool.
[00:36:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
I'll be able to sleep well now, now. Thank you.
[00:36:18] Speaker A: It's true. I mean, it's you. I have a different brain than. Than your average. The person who's going to go to the store potentially on October 28th and buy this because they're buying it for pure enjoyment, whereas I have to have more of an analytical brain of, like, how the story works and if it doesn't work and all that stuff because of reviewing or talking to you or things like that. And so I do go into it a little bit different than other people. And that's the problem with sometimes where I'm like, do I ever read anything anymore? Where it's like, just enjoyable to read it here and there Most of the time, I'm going to it. I'm like, is this book good or not?
And that's. And that it's not fun, but it is what it is. And that this, like, I said this to me, was a really good book.
It scratched all a bunch of the itches that I was actually wanting it to the time. And I think that a lot of people will like that. The name, the description, what happens in the book is just. It's fun.
It makes you think. You have a little bit of twists here and there where you're like, I think it's going to go this way. Then all of a sudden, I know where it goes the other way, which is great. Which you kind of want in this mystery, thriller side of things.
[00:37:18] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:37:19] Speaker A: Is there more to this story? But, like, is there. You have novels in your head, ideas to write. Are you writing.
What's the plan for after this? I know we haven't come out yet, but.
[00:37:31] Speaker B: Right. I mean, look, if I am so privileged as to be able to revisit these characters in this world, then I am ready. Like, originally, I had begun.
I was about two thirds of the way through the novel when I took a break, and I said, this feels more like a trilogy. Feels more like something that I can tell over the course of three novels if I'm so lucky as to come back and share that with my editor. And he's like, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes there, buddy. Let's just see how the first one does. All right. All right. I'm like, yeah, of course. Of course. Because the thing I actually can't stand on the. On the screenwriting side of things is when you release a movie, it just feels like it's a trailer to a franchise.
[00:38:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: You're like, oh, yeah, check this out. And, like, don't do that. Like, that's.
That's. That's kind of condescending and it's presumptuous and. And like. So I certainly didn't want to do that. I feel like this. That absolutely tells its full story, and it just leaves you hanging in a spot where you can kind of fill in the rest of what can happen afterward.
But I can tell what happens afterward as well. Like, that is a possibility. And I'd be happy to come back and.
And talk about, you know, instantaneous, which would be.
[00:38:44] Speaker A: So that, to me, is a. The book is complete. For anybody who's listening and watching, this is a complete novel that, like, when you read it from beginning to end, it's an incredible story. There's ups and downs, there's twists, there's mystery. There's, like I said, moments that make you go, what the is going on? And moments that make you go, is this real kind of thing? Which is phenomenal. And then at the end of the story, it wraps up enough that you go, okay, cool. This is not your. You got. You know, this is a TV show, and at the end, they have a cliffhanger for season two, and then you don't get it renewed. This is not that situation, which we've been down way too many times in the world, you know, whether it be books or anything, comics, anything like that. So many times you read the last page or you see the last episode, and they're like, in next season, you're like, oh, we don't get another season. This is not like that. However, would I absolutely love to, like, live in the world of Grant and Sarah? Those. Those people pieces again, 100%. That'd be awesome. But I'd also be happy if they're like, no, we're not going to do that. But we want your stuff. We just have to write a different book. I'm okay with that, too, because, like I said, your stories, you know, obscure or not, like, if they're great. When I'm listening, looking at your movies that you've done, too, I'm like, geez, you.
Not everybody has liked your movies. Did you know that?
[00:40:02] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:40:04] Speaker A: But I'm a fan of all. I mean, I have Final Destination fives right here.
Hey, Arrival. Back here on the wall here. I'm hoping at one point, so this stuff back here, Eric, is all signed by previous guests. So hoping at one point I get it signed by you so I can add it to the wall over here. But, yeah, so this is.
So I like your movies. And so that was one of those things when you said you're coming out with a book. I was like, how am I not gonna read this book? And then it was fantastic. And so there's that, too. I mean, you know, I've definitely read books by people who are. I'm like, I love your movies in there.
They're not the best at writing or the opposite. They've written books, and I'm like, they're very good, and they watch one of their movies, and, like, maybe you stick to one of them. You're talented, man. I have to say.
You have a gift for telling stories. You really do. And I'm happy that people are going to be able to read simultaneous on October 28th or whenever they get a chance to read it. But they should buy it first week, I'll tell you that much.
No, buy it, buy it. They're not very smart if you don't buy it and people won't like it. And that's the thing.
You have enough of a. People have seen enough of your stuff that you probably are not immune to it. But you understand the ups and the downs of people reviewing your stuff. And the difference I think with this is that, like I said, this is all, you know, not to put the pressure on you, but this is all you. And this is a story that you created from the ground up. And it's not an adaptation of someone else's story. That again, your screenplays are your own thing. And that's one of the reasons why you were your Academy Award nominated for Arrival. It's just your own story that is taken from someone else's original idea, but it's still your own story. But this is like your own story.
I mean, unless someone else has helped you with it. But I don't know that. Did you get ideas from other people? Have you, like, is this, like, I didn't ask you from that beginning, did it come from somewhere? Or was this just an idea that came to you one day about past life?
[00:41:55] Speaker B: And they, you know, interestingly, ideas come to me in all forms and at all times. You know, sometimes they ambush you when they're mid conversation with somebody. Sometimes you're trying to solve a specific story problem and you're coming up with solutions, like as writing tools.
An idea will be like, well, you're not right for this thing. But wait a minute, this is a whole new thing.
And for me it was that I. I did. And it's interesting because I even mentioned this movie as a hat tip in the, in the novel at one point in time is something that Sarah watches with a friend. But I revisited Dead Again and I was like, you know, I have not.
I love past life stories, love reincarnation stories. And I'm a metalhead myself. And so one of my favorite albums is sort of a concept album by Dream Theater called Scenes from a Memory. And it's essentially a past life murder mystery that then just had me itching to do that. And when I started to like put down elements of reincarnation and past life, I happened upon a mechanic that I hadn't really considered prior to this, which was, wait, for this to even work, there has to be a finite number of souls.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: And if that's the case, then hang On a second.
My math isn't mathing right here. And then I ended up with the concept that became the novel, which is phenomenal.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: First of all, Mike Portnoy is one of the greatest drummers in the history of mankind.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:43:26] Speaker A: Just right there. I'll get, I'll get on that. My dad was a drummer. I was a drummer.
That's the thing. Watching and YouTube videos are just Mike Portnoy playing. And like, it's just, it's. Yeah, but yeah, Dream Theater is a, it's a classic band for sure. But yeah, that's awesome. It's great to hear. So you have this novel. You have. Are you working, I'm guessing, are you still working screenwriting? So you don't know what's going on in Hollywood, but are you still like trying to do things and things like that? Obviously there's things you can't talk about, but like, yeah, so you're trying. So you have novel, you have this novel. You said you have a future potentially in writing more if you keep it aloud. It's been a few years since you've done a comic. Are you ever looking to go back into that industry as well? Or are you just, you know, too much, too much to go on, going on too many plates spinning already?
[00:44:08] Speaker B: I, you know, actually I did write a comic for a company and it's tied to a product there's yet. But that will, hopefully that will debut in the next six months to year.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: That's cool.
[00:44:23] Speaker B: And I got to reunite with Raul and Patricia who did the art and colors for Secret Weapons.
[00:44:29] Speaker A: Secret Weapons, yep.
That's pretty cool. I just, like I said, again, I'm a fan of your writing and so I'm a big comic book fan, big movie fan, big, you know, fan of prose novels. Like, this is cool to see you in multiple avenues in places. But yeah. October 28, 2025.
Simultaneous hit stories from Flatiron Books. Bookstores everywhere. Tell your book, your local bookshop, that you want it pre order it wherever you can. If you can't, you're not local. Whatever. Bookshop.org is a great place to get it because that helps support local bookstores. Audiobook again, there's two other narrators. They're slipping the top of my head, but Ray Porter does a lot of it and Ray's phenomenal and you can get that at Libro fm, which is a great place. Again, supports local bookstores. But in the end, like I've always said to everybody, every time I close one of these podcasts out is if you want to read the book, go buy it. If it's Amazon, it's Amazon. Just, just, just buy the book. Don't, don't go. Because I don't want to support mega corporations. I don't want to buy the book. That's not how this should work. Buy the book. It doesn't matter if it's at Walmart or wherever. Just buy the book if you want to read the book or go to your local library and tell them that you want it because that's huge as well. So that's free. And local libraries actually do wonders for authors and things like that because it tells the publisher that people want to read your book, which meant that means Eric gets other jobs reading, writing books. And that's great for us because if we're fans of Eric's, then we want more books from Eric. So. But yeah, October 28th, everywhere.
Congratulations. It hasn't met. You're not there yet. You're about a month and a half away as of recording this. But like, congratulations, it's going to be phenomenal. I can't wait for other people to read it. And I do appreciate you taking the time out of your day to chat the book here and just chat about things. It was very enjoyable. I appreciate, appreciate it.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: It was filling. Thank you so much, Jason.
[00:46:08] Speaker A: Thank you very much, Eric.
