Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Capes and Tights podcast right here on Capesentites.com. I'm your host, Justin Soderberg. This episode, we welcome comic book writer Zach Kaplan to the podcast to discuss his upcoming book, Beyond Real over at Vault Comics, coming December 13, 2023, to your local comic book shop, which is actually free to retailers. So make sure you contact your retailer and ask them that you want a copy of Beyond Real. We also touch a little bit on Kill All Immortals, a book that Zach has coming out over at Dark Horse in early 2024. Zach has written books such as Eclipse, Port of Earth, the Lost City of Explorers, join the Future, Breakout Metal Society mindset, one of my favorite books out there, forever Forward. And in December, he has beyond real. In early 2024, he has kill all Immortals, but he's done books for image, Top cow for Aftershock, Vault, humanoid, Scout, all those things. DC Comics and beyond.
His comic book Port of Earth has been adapted and developed by Robert Kirkman, Skybound Entertainment, and Amazon TV Studios as well. So check out for luck that in the future. But this is Zach Kaplan, writer of Beyond Real at Vault Comics coming December 13, 2023 to your local comic book shop. Enjoy, everybody.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Whip.
Whip.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Welcome to the podcast. Zach. How are you today?
[00:01:25] Speaker B: I'm good. How are you?
[00:01:26] Speaker A: I should say a previous world has used it as Zachary, so I don't know if Zach is appropriate.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: No, Zach, you know, it's funny when I get listed as, like, there'll be like, a couple Amazon author things where it's like, Zachary, I feel like I'm in grade school. Like, I haven't gone by Zachary since grade school. So, no, Zach is. That's. That's what?
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Zachary, that's your official. That's when you're, like, going, like, court. When someone's taking you to court, it's like, okay, Zachary. Yes. Writing comics.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Yes. Well, that's the good thing. If I get in a lot of trouble, I can just be like, I don't know who that guy is. Zachary. You should go find him. He's up to no good. I'm Zach Kaplan.
That guy. I haven't known him since a long time, but whatever he name, state your name for the record. We have Zachary listed here. No, I'm Zach. I don't know Zach.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: I don't know who that guy is. I don't know. That guy's in another room somewhere under lock and key. We don't want him right now. But Zach Kaplan is a comic book writer extraordinaire.
Obviously, we talked a little bit just chatted on social media to get this set up and stuff, like, so thank you so much for taking the time out to talk on here. Absolutely, yeah. So what have you been up to recently? Have you been, like, doing cons?
What's the day in the life right now for Zach?
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah, it shifts, I guess. I did just come back. I mean, God, it feels like New York Comic Con was just yesterday, but I guess that was about a month ago. So there's a lot of build up to that.
I've been doing a lot of getting the word out on mean. I have a few other writing things that I'm focused on, but a lot that's the secret about comic creators is we don't just spend all our time writing, and so a lot of the time is spent doing all sorts of other things. I have about five books still in development in different phases, but I'm in a unique point in my schedule where actually, from a writing standpoint, I'm ahead of where I need to be on writing stuff. And so while I've been focused a lot on getting the word out on beyond real, whether it's getting the word out on social media or retailers that's hustling and hitting the pavement, it's a cool. Not only are we really proud about the book, but it's a pretty interesting thing. That vault is making it free to retailers. And so definitely been trying to get the word out to retailers on that to encourage them to take a little bit more of a chance or a risk than they might normally do so on an independent comic because it's free to them.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Yeah, this is interesting. They did that with unnatural, too unnatural order. Is this a new thing that Vault's doing?
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Just like brand new? Yeah.
And I applaud them for the kind of creativity and the attempt to kind of try something different. I think everyone is well aware that the pandemic was really good for monthly comic series, and since then, just the past year or so has not been great for everyone. And there's been some successes. And I think still the comic book industry as a whole is really solid and graphic novels are killing it. But monthlies have been dipping a little bit, and this is just a way to end retailers. This is just a way to help retailers. We all love our comic shops, and we all want our comic shops to thrive, and we want to create a sense of community engagement when people go to the comic shop. And so this is a way to support shops, support monthly comics, and make it easier for the retailers to pick up this book and try it, rather than kind of going, oh, why don't we just put a few on the shelf and then we'll see who picks up or the subscribers who may not be aware. Vault is still actually, they started the same time I started, which was back in about 2016.
So both of us are still relatively new and trying to get the word out and meet more readers. And so, yeah, this is this idea. They did it with unnatural order, Christopher Yost's series last month. It was a huge success, 140,000 preorders or something, which, yeah, when they came to me and said, do you want to do this for beyond real? I said, absolutely, yes, I want to print 140,000 or whatever it is. Yes, I want to print more and give them away and let more people try this series because we believe in it, we're really proud of it. And I think that if people try the first issue, they will absolutely come back for more. Absolutely.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: And it also shows that Vault believes in the book, too, because if they didn't believe in the fact that they'd get the return on their investment with potentially retailers and consumers buying issue two, then that. Absolutely. If you're just like, oh, because number ones aren't that hard to sell for retailers in a sense, if they buy them. Because a number one, when it's on someone's polis is like, oh, I'll take a shot at this. Number one, it's the number two, three and four. They start to drop off and attrition. Is there to believe in the comic book enough to be able to say, well, they're likely going to buy at least some of these, let's just give it to them. Hoping that they buy two, three, four and so on is huge.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the goal. I mean, I think readers have that apprehension of, I don't want to just try a number one because what if I like it? Then I'm hooked on the series. Right?
What if I don't like it? Then I'm not.
So I think this idea is a very provocative kind of idea of let's give number one free to the retailers. Some retailers are going to make it available to their customers for free or incentivize their customers. If you subscribe or you pick up number two ones for free or it comes with a cover or whatever, there's lots of different ways comic shops can orient this. They know their customer base better than we do. I've spoken to a lot of retailers. They're all extremely different. And so this is just trying to create a lower risk on that first barrier, which is to encourage the retailers who are the ones, let's be honest, that oftentimes turn readers on to books they don't know. You go into your shop and you're saying, yeah, I liked this Marvel book, or I like this giant image hit. And they say, well, if you like this, you should try this other thing. It's by the same creative team or it's the same subject matter, and that's how people fall in love with new stuff. So, yeah, it's all very exciting. I'm very hopeful that we'll see how it works out, but I'm very excited about it.
[00:08:11] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome. Vault is such a great company, too. I've read so many good titles from them, and just dealing with them is really awesome as well. But they started right around 2016. You started right around 2016. Have you been an avid comic book reader, collector, obviously, since, or all this stuff since you were young? When did you come into reading and collecting comics?
[00:08:33] Speaker B: I was reading and collecting when I was young, but it was kind of more big two or things that I had seen on Saturday morning cartoons. Far more of an immature hobby for me when I was in my childhood. I think when I got into my right out of college and kind of more the 2000s, when I was getting turned on to more Vertigo and more original creator own series, I think for me that was a golden era where I kind of realized that comics had a lot more depth and variety and scope. And that was when I fell in love with the idea of what I know comics to be and kind of also dreamed of maybe one day doing a comic. And then I spent a long time pursuing it and finally got the chance to do it. Image Top Cow's book Eclipse was my first series about a world of deadly sunlight. It was a Sci-Fi thriller, and it did very well. And that was when I fell in love with the craft and the medium and kind of dove all in right around 2016.
That San Diego, I think, was, we were promoting it at that first San Diego Comic Con.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: You've been doing this since 2016, but it's kind of funny. You mentioned about getting this comic book beyond real into people's hands who may not potentially, may not even know who you are as a writer, even though you have a number of titles with your name on it. So this is not like your first.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: This is my 9th creator on book. But I'll tell you what's something funny that happens to me is people will hear like, when I talk to someone or if they come to my table at a convention, they'll be like, wait, you did port of Earth, or wait, you did breakout, or wait, you did join the future. And I'm like, yeah. They're like, I love that book. And I'm like, oh, thank you so much. And they're like, oh, I had no idea you did all these different comics. And I go, well, thanks. I guess that's. I don't know what to think about that. But now you're. Now you know.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: Oh, you're Zachary. Oh, I thought you were Zachary. I'm sorry.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: You thought you had Zachary, right. Zachary was the one that was doing all those books.
[00:10:40] Speaker A: It's also funny it works the other way because preparing for this discussion with you, Obviously, I read beyond Rio, which was excellent. And then I went back and read Mindset because that's when I first actually got introduced to you as a writer.
I've been a comic book fan my entire life, but I really went headfirst into comics about three or four years ago, and obviously most of it got, when I got back into comics about three or four years ago was a lot of Marvel stuff because I had a Marvel zombie, and then it slowly worked to, like, my polest every week has, like, maybe a Marvel comic in it, and the rest of it's just.
But it's kind of funny. I was like, when I started reading Mindset again, I was like, this is the comic book about mind control. I couldn't remember. I read it off the shelf. I bought it new issues, like single issues every month. And I read it and I loved it and so on and so forth. And I remember you had written it when we had discussed this. Come on, here. But I couldn't remember that that was the comic. So it was kind of the funniest thing. I'm like, oh, my God, this is the one. I've been trying to figure out what it was for so long now. And it happened to be not so long, but long enough. It happened to be mindset. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I love this book so much. And then that hit trade in this year, right?
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Mindset was just collected, like, June or May or June of this year something just a few months ago.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what it's like. It's so funny how some people might know the name and not know your books or know the books and not know the name and so on and so forth. But maybe again, you get a free comic book or a cheap comic book beyond real, because it's the first issue like that. You might go, oh, who's this?
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Zach Kaplan?
[00:12:08] Speaker A: And then look up the rest of your stuff and go, wait, you did eclipse port of?
[00:12:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: It's kind of funny how that works. And I was like, I was so glad. It made me so happy because it was like, if we didn't discuss coming on here, I may have got a long time before I was like, what was that book that I read?
Mindset.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Yes. I loved working on mindset. It was my first vault book and one of my bestsellers last year, and it continues.
People are still finding that book and picking it up. It's been just awesome.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it's so good. I love the book so much. But like I said, wonders of vault, the covers are really good, too. Colors everything in. It's beautiful. But that maybe.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: For those of people who are listening, who maybe have caught beyond real but don't know, mindset, it's a mind control thriller. It's basically about a relationship with technology. It follows four grad students in Silicon Valley who accidentally discover a form of mind control, and instead of, like, go nuts and party, they decide to do something meaningful and helpful. They put it in a meditation app to free us all of our addiction to our phones. And then a billion people start using their app, and they realize, oh, we're not helping people. We're controlling the world with this. And very much about how we're all addicted to our phones and our devices, and we're kind of laughing about it as technology takes our minds away from us.
[00:13:35] Speaker A: It's excellent. It's available on trade. And best thing about trade paperbacks, I'm a big single issue floppy guy.
We do a book club at my LCS. So I do end up buying trades of some things because we read it for the book club. But the best thing about trades is that you can get them at bookstores, too. So if you don't have a local book shop or you don't know where yours is, you can go to most small independent bookshops or big shops and.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: Just say, they don't have it on the shelf, they can order it, too.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: They can get it. So that's what's cool about that, is that you end up crossing over into another market when it goes into trade, which is pretty cool, in my opinion. You can also get it.
Get it anywhere. You can buy it. That's my biggest thing I say a thousand times on this podcast. Yes, try to buy local. Try to buy from your local shop. But if you can't find it and you can get it on Amazon, just buy it. Just don't not buy it.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: It is available on Amazon and Target and Barnes and Noble, too. Although if you have the time and patience, it's certainly cool of you to order it from a shop, whether it's a bookstore or comic shop.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: Yeah, in the end it helps an independent publisher. In the end it helps a writer or an artist at a creative team if you buy it anywhere. So yes, support local. But in the same sense, don't skip out on buying it because you don't want to buy it from some online website.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: Yeah, you are helping the indie publisher and the art team and everyone. Because when you go into a local comic shop and you buy that book, the managers, the staff, they're going to see that. They're going to see that book continue to move and they're going to turn around and recommend that book to other people. That's not going to happen at Target.
It's very cool to have my book in target or my book in Barnes and Noble. There are so many books that just go through there. They're not paying attention when one book sells. So you create a real referral community and a real sense of connection for these books when you support local comic shops and bookstores.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: Obviously beyond Real is coming in December. But I was laughing because we talked about book club. I'm like, now that I remembered that mindset was that book, I'm going to highly recommend it. We read it for book club because I think everybody will like this book.
[00:15:44] Speaker B: Did you do mindset for the book club? Was that what?
[00:15:46] Speaker A: Not yet. We're going to.
[00:15:47] Speaker B: I'm hoping you'll have to tell me what everyone decides happens at the end. Because the ending of mindset, it's just a thought provoking ending.
It's a little interpretive and I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks happens.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: We've done it in the past, too. It's kind of cool. Because of my connection to the book club, we've actually done it. If I've talked to the creators, we've actually invited sometimes them to join us via Zoom before we actually have our discussion. So maybe if we end up doing it, I'll be back in touch about that because you can. I said we got to do it before we start and not during or in like that. Because I'm like, I also want people to have free opinions in this book club. So I don't want people hiding what they actually think about a book. If the creator's, like, sitting there being like, oh, really?
[00:16:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: Oh, you didn't like it? Awesome, right. Thanks a lot.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: I'll pull an Adam driver. If you've seen that new TikTok where Adam Driver gets asked a question like, why does this part of the movie suck? And he's like, I don't know. F you. What do you want from.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Read? I haven't only read so far of a Zach Kaplan books is mindset, and.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Mindset is a darker story compared to beyond real. But I would say they both deal with one, technology and two, they're both very surrealist and subjective at times. And I definitely think the same place that you find yourself from a thought provoking, mindful place in mindset. If you like that sort of story, what makes you think and makes you question things beyond real is for you as well. Beyond Real is definitely a story that intends to try to make us question not just are we living in a simulation, but why do we? Whenever we subscribe a structure to life, do we assume that it is going to be rigid and not imaginative or loose?
It's not just a love letter to artists, but it's kind of raising some thoughts and questions about what does it mean to create and the creative process. I mean, we live in a world, in a universe that is all about creation. We are created, everything is created, and cells divide and neurons spin, and these things, like, all, everything has a path. But then creation is also very messy. So it's just really an exploration about what it means to create. And thinking about is the fabric of our lives determined, predetermined? Is it loose and messy? What is the answer? And I feel like these are definitely, like, late night kind of questions that we've all kind of thought about with friends or by ourselves or watching other content. But, yeah, the simulation theory is a really prevalent idea. Right now. We're living in a simulation, and that means everything must be predetermined. And so it just got me really wanting to pose some questions about this. And I definitely think beyond real is not in the same way that mindset poses questions to the reader and lets them answer them.
Beyond real will do the same. Beyond real doesn't have all the answers, but it has the questions.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: Here. Is this actually conversations that you've had with your friends, whether or not you live in a simulation or not? Is this where it came from, or is it just with myself?
[00:19:25] Speaker B: Sometimes, I guess, yeah, sometimes I like these kinds of conversations. I like geeking out about really existential kind of questions. About fate and determination. And the simulation theory thing is super interesting.
There's a lot of very credible scientists and physicists who say, no, this makes sense, which is weird because it's stepped out of crackpot out there and you have people who actually are legitimate who say from a science standpoint, we all could be in a simulation. There's some really fascinating aspects of it. So, yeah, I like to talk about this kind of stuff. Yeah, it's interesting.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: And you kind of have to have that. Not really. I just don't think I have the mindset, no pun intended, the mindset to think that way.
I have had more questions than answers over the past, I don't know, ten years in general anyway, about life and the meaning of life and all that stuff. But it's just kind of funny to think about conversations. I feel like it's like after a few drinks, you're sitting at the bar and it's just like it divulges into this conversation about, this is a simulation, da da.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: That.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: And the reason I asked that question, I think, is because you kind of need to have that mind, you have to have something to write a book about it. You know what I mean? You can't just be like, I'm going to write a book about whether or not we're living in a simulation or not, and then potentially go and look up. You have to have some sort of preconceived thing to even come up with the idea of wanting to write about this. So I just didn't know if it was like, I'm guessing you did some research to write this book as well.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: I did a lot of research about simulation theory, but I think even people who have never even thought of a simulation theory, there are lots of people who think about fate. You have lots of people who say, oh, we were fated to meet, or this was destined to happen, or, I believe that I was supposed to be at this place at this time, or, why does this keep happening to me? I'm on this negative path or this. I think a lot of people believe in or explore these sorts of aspects in their life. They may not assign the computer simulation component to it, but the nature of our lives and what is predetermined and what is out of our control, I think is something everyone thinks about.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: I just had a deja vu moment last night. This is my studio space and I have a bookshelf over here. I was putting some books away and I have a two year old and he was playing on the floor and he was doing something, and my wife was on her desk, and I was like, everything was, like, the exact same way as it was at some point earlier, like, I don't know, two months ago. And I think that the simulation thing, after recently reading something, like, beyond real is the thought process of, like, oh, that's a glitch. We've already run this program before, and they're running it again. And that's not like, wait, that shouldn't happen this way. But, yeah, I've always had the conversation, too, about, with my wife, for example, I've been married and divorced, and I have a kid. I have a kid on the way. I wouldn't be where I was if it wasn't for my previous marriage and divorce. There's a preconceived, you can think the way that someone, no, this is the way it planned. You do this first, then you get divorced, and then you'll meet your wife, and then you'll be with her forever or whatever. And bad things happen to good people. That whole quote that people say that all the time, why do bad things happen to good people? And I say, you can think about it in a way that it's determined, and life is supposed to be that way because bad things happen to good people. Because something as good is going to happen in the future or something along those lines. And, yeah, it makes you think. It's definitely one of those ones that I don't think most people would think that you're going to think that hard about a comic book. I think that's the benefit you mentioned about the big two versus independent comics nowadays. Is that there's so much more involved than just people beating each other up in New York City and beyond.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: Real is a heartfelt, emotional comic. I think it opens with this main character, June, who's lost in her life. She's an artist.
She hasn't had the realization or understanding that tragedy has led her to where she needs to be. She doesn't understand why her life is in such disarray. And the only thing that is her silver lining is she has a boyfriend that she's in love with, that she's happy with, and then there's an accident, and he's put into a coma, and it throws her life into total turmoil and chaos. The same time, she develops this kind of supernatural phenomena. To be able to engage with life in a strange way that she doesn't entirely understand. Ultimately, she realizes she's kind of gained editorial access to the simulation. She's able to travel through it, but yeah, it's very much about going through hard times and going through tragedies and going through moments where we feel lost and not understanding why these things are happening. And I think it's something that artists go through specifically in relationship to how they or creatives, in terms of how they find their voice in themselves, in whatever creative path they're doing. And it's hard to be a creative, and they take hits, but it's also something that people can relate to just in general in life. When you face a tragedy or when you face a repetition of something continually happening that you feel is negative, and what am I supposed to make of this? And then you might come out on the other side and say, oh, well, this has prepared me for this positive experience, or I had to go through this.
But it's hard when you're having a negative thing happen, to feel that that is predetermined, and that's really a painful kind of experience. So, yeah, beyond real goes there, and it's definitely, I guess I do try to write deep, complex, meaningful kind of character questions like this, but beyond real definitely goes into that territory, which I think is, I think, readers will hopefully find very fulfilling, because I think the first issue will grab the hell out of you, and you fall in love with June.
It's also drawn gorgeously, and I should segue here to say the series has seven different artists, two colorists and a letterer. On the whole series. We're actually changing artists as we go to different parts. Different artists are drawing different parts of the simulation in the beginning. Fabiana Mascolo and Jordi Belair are artists at the beginning just so beautifully capture this character and just kind of this ordinary world and what she's going through emotionally. And then once she leaves the ordinary world and goes beyond, it's game on in terms of all these amazing artists just tearing the hell out of this thing. Tony FaJUla, Vicenzo Riccardi Dennis Men here. Jorge Corona, Liana Kangas, Luana Vecchio, Matea Kono is another colorist in there. And they're all just creating these breathtaking worlds as June travels through them on her kind of wizard of Oz journey towards the center of the simulation to find the truth about life.
It's just so gorgeous.
I cannot help but brag about the art in this book, because I really believe it's going to be one of the most beautiful comics on shelves, not just in December, but all next year.
Yeah.
[00:27:17] Speaker A: How many issues are you doing?
[00:27:19] Speaker B: It's five issue miniseries.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: Cool.
I had in my notes, saying it's visually stunning in the sense that I love the idea and I personally love your writing. And so there's that aspect of it. And a lot of times people like, I have a lot of writers on the podcast versus illustrators or colorists. And it's kind of funny, because when I really like the art, it's always fun to have the writer on because we can get back and forth. We talk all great things about these artists, and they're not sitting here going, yeah, it's me.
We can just praise the writer.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: I can brag about the know, like mindset. I worked with John Pearson, who is an amazing artist, too, and we had a lot of fun playing with form, playing with surrealism and all sorts of things.
He's incredible, too. An Eisner winner. But I think beyond real is different in the sense that John, to his credit, in mindset, a lot of that story is about ordinary on people at a party, on a boat, people in a lab, in a classroom, people on a bluff looking out at a city. Like, very ordinary situations. He takes those ordinary situations or two people at dinner and makes them really interesting because we're playing with the emotionality and the power dynamics of that scene.
Beyond Real is like Vincenza Riccardi is drawing like all nature comes to know. Double page spread. The hills, the mountains, the forest, the trees, the air is all alive and constantly moving. And, you know, Tony Fajul is like, girl is on a building looking out at a cityscape, where the entire city is like a linear, geometric power grid, and there's a billion lines, and you can see people inside go.
When I say visually stunning, it's like just crazy world building. Crazy world building. And these artists are so distinct in their style. You'll look at these artists and you'll say, they're literally like a very tiny handful of artists that could draw this the way this artist has drawn this. It's so distinct.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: And the depiction of when she's finding out, really, that this simulation is what it is, there's, like this visual moments that breaking through, almost in a sense. And that, to me, was also like, how would you depict, if you're right, easily you could write this as a novel, right? And just write it, and then you explain it a little bit about the simulation, so on and so forth. But, like, visually depicting in the first issue, yes. In the beginning.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: Before she's left the ordinary world, her ordinary world is actually collapsing, and she's actually engaging. And so, yeah, that's Fabiana Mescolo and Belair. Like, she's drawing and her pen is not just breaking through the paper, but breaking through life's boundaries. Or you see a panel where literally the panel itself is fraying and the part of her bedroom is collapsing. And so we had a lot of fun. And what's also very interesting is those moments where we're playing with what's happening to reality is also perfectly mirroring what's happening to her emotionally. So you can really feel the metaphor at hand about she's going through something painful and hard, and she feels like her world is collapsing, and that's when her world collapses. Or she feels like the noise of everybody else's ordinary, wonderful day is drowning her.
It's overwhelming. And so she's hearing everyone's thoughts. And so, yeah, we playing a lot with the metaphor of pain and tragedy. And I think that's something that I really have fallen in love with in storytelling recently, is the subjectivity of storytelling, where you can see something strange and supernatural or Sci-Fi happening to her, but you almost don't even know if it's real or if it's a metaphor, basically. Like, you could almost imagine that this is all just metaphoric for how she's feeling emotionally. But there it is on the page, being visually represented, and so you take it at face value.
[00:31:57] Speaker A: So, yeah, visually stunning is a great word to use for. I mean, like I said, it's well written as well, but the visuals to it is one of those things that I'm going to reread the book. A to reread the story, but also just maybe one run through the book. I'm just going to run through the book and just look at it visually. Look at all the panels, look at all the. It's that one of those ones that's not. The art's not just there to serve the story, it's like part of the story, and that's really cool. And not to mention, Hassan's lettering is phenomenal as well. So, like one of those things that talked. I've had a few letterers on the podcast and discussing the idea that you want to add to the visual aspect of it, but not take away by making it distracting. And there's some sort of use that Hassan does with the bubbles almost off the page, too, behind other bubbles and things that, to me, stood out, but not in a bad way. It just added to the whole experience of reading the first couple issues.
[00:32:50] Speaker B: I've done a few other series with Hassan, and I'm doing more with Hassan, my dark Horse book, is with Hassan as well. He's one of the best colorists in the business. And not only does he do an amazing job of playing with the duality of the first issue, where we both have ordinary and extraordinary kind of coming together, and he's creating a lettering style that carries you through all these different kind of dynamic layouts and playing with that, what you're talking about of when we're in just reality and when we're drifting back into something more. But then he is taking on completely different styles throughout each world that June travels, all these other artists that I've mentioned, he's developing a style that both carries through the entire series but also shifts accordingly. So, yes, Eisner's for best Letterer Hassan doing seven different artists over a five issue miniseries in this way. Absolutely, yes.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: It's funny, too, because obviously, when you email the press people and some of your fellow creatives, the first three issues, and we can't put anything up about it for a couple of weeks now or a little while now, but that first three issue thing, it's so funny because I felt like maybe would have experienced it slightly different if I only read the first issue compared to reading two and three as well. And every once in a while, these streaming services nowadays will put, like, two or three episodes up and then the rest of it, week to week. I almost feel like, I wish this is what you could have done first month. You could have put out December 13, you could have put out, like, issue one is free, and then there's two and three on the shelf as well that you can buy all at the same time. And then in January and February, like.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: The last, not a bad idea.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: But that, to me, was like, it made it so much more impactful in that sense. And maybe that's one of the beneficial things you'll get from that free comic, is that someone will.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: That speaks to something that we did here, which is, I think, issue one is emotionally, really will grab you, and it's really a fascinating situation, but we're only giving you a taste of the world building to come at the tail end of issue one.
And then the amount of world building that's being withheld that you see in issues two and three is so incredible that getting to experience the first three issues for this particular one all at once, or the first two issues is really something. But while that was your experience, I'm still very optimistic that most readers who are picking up issue one will be so engrossed and curious about what is to come. And there is certainly a really fun cliffhanger and a taste at the end of issue one in terms of the world to come. I think that it will be enough for them to take them through to the series. And this is something I do think works very well as a monthly because you have different artists drawing it in different worlds that it's not like, oh, I kind of know what to expect now. I can wait for the trade. I do think there's a value to picking up month to month, if you.
[00:36:01] Speaker A: Like to do that. Yeah, exactly. And I do think that. I always hate to use the statement, it leaves you wanting more because it can be taken the wrong way. Like there wasn't enough.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: No. Aren't we supposed to want more?
Yeah.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: And so, like, the end of what.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: A crazy thing in episodic storytelling that you would be like, what I'd really like to do is read a chapter that ends so boring that I don't want anymore and I can come back only if I. Why would you want to come back if you don't want more? How many of us have dropped shows? We start a show and you say, everyone was raving about this show. Did you watch it? I watched the first episode, but it didn't leave me wanting more, so I didn't come back to that episode. That's the point. We all want to be excited to come back wanting more. So that's what good stories do.
It doesn't have to be that kind of thing where the person is hanging off the cliff and you're like, oh, then they dropped and there was another step underneath them, and it was a fake scare.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: They're always dreaming. They're just dreaming.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: Yeah, they're always dreaming, right? They woke up.
[00:37:12] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's one of those things that you can take it the wrong way. If someone's like, oh, they didn't give you enough, you want more. It's what they're supposed to do. But the idea is that it gets me to go to the store next month and buy the next issue because I want to know, and in a good way, in a sense that I've read books where it was almost so bad in the first issue that I was like, I want to see if this gets.
See, I want the next issue just because I want to see if they resolved the issues they had in the first issue, and then you end up getting the second issue and it's like, they didn't do it. We're done. But no, this is one of those ones where it's like, I want to see where June is going after. And that's why immediately when the best thing about having a couple of issues to read was I could read the next one, oh my gosh, I'm excited. But I do see that, and I do agree with a lot of streaming services nowadays doing weekly, because it also gives the discussion in between. You're going to have fans of your work, fans of the artist work, discussing what's going to happen next. Between issues, you're going to have the local comic book shop around the water cooler being like, did you read beyond real? Because I had that all the time when someone comes in, maybe shop, having.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: Issue one free and having a couple on the shelf is a cool idea. And I mean, look, what I liked about Vault playing with this free to retail thing is they're exploring other ways to do this. And I think there are other ways out there. Hopefully not just vault will continue to explore, but maybe you'll see other people continue to explore.
I don't think a little creativity in this area is a bad thing.
[00:38:38] Speaker A: No. And my LCS owner was saying that one of the best things about the unnatural order thing is that he obviously had ordered more copies of number one than he probably had ordered any copies of number one of any comic book over the past couple of years. We're out here, here in Maine. He's a small independent comic book store that knows what his audience is like. So there are certain issues that get five issues. Sometimes he gets the one in ten, sometimes he gets the one in 25 stuff. But most of it's like, there's a lot of comic books that are on his shelf that don't even make it to the shelf because he only orders three copies because he knows three people want it. And as a small independent shop, you have to make sure that you're not obviously burying yourself in back issues, but with something like unnatural order. When he did, he was like, I ordered extra. Because how great would it be that the people who got the first issue but then didn't hear about the issue or didn't know about it? When issue two comes out, I put issue one next to issue two, and there is both copies for people like, oh, I missed out, though. You didn't, right, I've got it right here. And so the same thing. He'll probably over order.
[00:39:30] Speaker B: He probably over order because once you get into two and three and four, if you don't have any more one, if one has sold out at the distributor level just because it was a lower print run, but there was demand. Now you're stuck with people waiting for the trade. So, yes, having an excess of issue one is an opportunity for retailers to incentivize them and readers, then to come into two through five.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: So, yeah, the number of times you go to like, oh, we're going to put some packs of comics together. I'm going to go grab one through all of mindset. We're going to grab them all and put it in a box or a bundle so people can buy them all together. And you go back there and it's like, issues two through issue one is not there because issue one sold like hotcakes because it was an issue one. But to have a few extras to be able to put that. And I don't know, maybe throwing. He has like 20 or 30 polis customers, like throwing one in each one of the person's box. You're forced to take this book this week.
[00:40:23] Speaker B: Yeah, take it.
[00:40:24] Speaker A: It's free.
[00:40:25] Speaker B: Take it. You won't ask them? Yes, just give it to them.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: Just give it to them and then go from there.
It's a cool idea in the first place of giving that free issue out, like we mentioned, off the top, but I honestly think the book is going to sell. The COVID itself is also attractive.
[00:40:41] Speaker B: John Pearson, my mindset artist, does our entire a series cover, and the first cover is very striking and really incredible. It's again, playing with duality of seeing her sleep and then seeing this kind of metaphysical, artistic.
I don't even know how to describe it. Phenomena.
Yeah. Fabiana. Then there's some other amazing covers that are, whether it's Fabiana or Jorge Corona has a cover. Luana Vetchu has a cover. Liana Kangas did a New York comic Con exclusive cover, which is not going to be in shops, but there's a few probably floating around. That one's freaking gorgeous, too.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: Liana is a. We're big fans of.
[00:41:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm excited for everyone to see Liana's interiors.
[00:41:31] Speaker A: I can't.
We're personally, I'm a member of Liana's Patreon, so I can't wait. There's some things that obviously we get to see a little bit ahead of time on there, too. So I'm excited for that stuff, too. But, yeah, the artwork, I think they're not related. Like mindset and this are obviously not related. It's not like a sequel. It's not in the same universe. This is just another one of your stories. But you can see the easy transition that someone did like mindset a lot, like the artwork or the color, the COVID I mean, if you like your writing, it's very easy to say, if you liked mindset, you're probably going to enjoy this series as well, which is funny.
[00:42:02] Speaker B: Like the exact opposite spectrum for me is the new darker course, kill all Immortals.
[00:42:09] Speaker A: And that's coming out, what, February?
[00:42:11] Speaker B: That's a February book. And this is immortal Vikings fighting present day John Wicks style. It's like a secession style power family, like a billionaire power family. But what we find out is that actually it's Eric the Red and his four adult children who discovered immortality a thousand years ago and now they're know, a billionaire family of immortal Vikings.
And in that regard, and then it's just like berserker, something's killing the children, magic order mayhem. In terms of just an awesome ongoing action series and yeah, very different on the spectrum. I mean, I think there's still some of my love of complex character stories and character drama is for sure in there. And there's a little bit of commentary on billionaire class and billionaire family stuff, but definitely the opposite in terms of beyond real or like some of these, which are far more, I don't know what the word, not artistic, but just like Surrealist, I bet more. There's nothing surrealist about Frey and her two axes fighting and kicking ass.
[00:43:33] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. And you're doing, obviously, you mentioned Hassan's on that one lettering. Jordy Belair's.
[00:43:37] Speaker B: Fico Ossio is the artist. Oh, so good. For those of you who don't know Fico, he's done some big two stuff, action comics, Mr. Miracle, he did no one left a fight, which was a two arc book at Dark Horse, but far more colorful and a kind of different style completely than what Fico's doing on this and what he's done more on some of his big two stuff.
And then Jordy Belair is coloring it, and Fico and Jordy are just another amazing.
Really, really some cool stuff. And Hassan's. And then, yeah, we've got Tom Mueller did our amazing logo on that. Oliver Barrett is our cover artist. We have such an amazing cover a there. Vicenzo Riccardi and Raphael Albuquerque did covers as well. So yeah, super excited for people to check that one out.
[00:44:31] Speaker A: I love Dark Horse personally.
Have you done Dark horse books before or is this your first dark horse?
[00:44:36] Speaker B: This is my second one. I did breakout, which was my Sci-Fi prison break heist last year with them. And so this is my second series with Dark Horse.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: Yes. I love Dark Horse. It's funny too, because if we hadn't set this up on our own, Caitlin over at Dark Horse is very good about yeah, it would have gotten you. We would have been looped in at some point on this anyway. But the fun thing is you've been on this one, this episode to talk about mostly beyond Real, which drops December 13 at local comic book shops. Obviously. Sadly, I think final order cut off was last night, yesterday.
[00:45:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know.
[00:45:14] Speaker A: Whenever we go here, this is past final order.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: Yes, the FOC probably has already happened. That doesn't mean that your shop can't order one for you. Between the listening of this and the release day, and certainly with the free to retailer, every shop is going to be doing different things. So you ask your shop, tell your shop, don't wait. Because you hear about this free to retailer thing, don't wait. Assuming that there will be one on the shelf, there may not be one on the shelf, that there may be a dynamic where they've worked out things with pole customers. You just don't know. So definitely tell your shop you want one and you want a preorder and see what they're doing about it, and.
[00:45:55] Speaker A: Then you can get obviously, like I said, mindset. Get mindset while you're there doing that. But I personally recommend grab all your stuff. But other than that, I could personally recommend Mindset and then kill all immortals. Look for that too, because that FOC will come in a you can pre.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: Order that while you're there. I think that the final cut off for that won't be until January, but you can certainly tell them about it while you're picking up other stuff of mine that'll come out in February.
[00:46:24] Speaker A: It's so great to see these books coming in the future, but as we get closer to kill all immortals, Obviously I don't like to have someone on so quick, but it doesn't mean that when the trade comes out for kill all, we don't come back and have the whole story in people's hands or about to be in people's hands. And we can talk about that even more in depth.
[00:46:41] Speaker B: I might have more books already announced and coming or out, who knows? By the time the kill all mortals trades come out. Yeah, I'll probably have more stuff out too.
[00:46:51] Speaker A: I tend to try to keep this a little PG 13 or so when we talk on here, but I wanted to leave this. I have left one note on here that beyond real is a mind fuck, so I want people to read beyond real it really is amazing. There's so much to look at on the book. So much to read. It's easy read, good pacing. So check that out. We will have, obviously, some sort of something up on our website as well as we get closer to when the embargo on writing reviews on it, it gets lifted, I guess not as well. It's not like movie TV stuff where there's physically, like some sort of gate that gets lifted, but it's close to that. They do keep it contained a little bit out there, but yeah, absolutely.
[00:47:32] Speaker B: Thank you for the kind words. Thank you very much. Absolutely.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to come on here and talk comics and all that stuff here. And we'll get you back on. Definitely. And you're on social media, I'm guessing, as well, right?
[00:47:45] Speaker B: What was that?
[00:47:46] Speaker A: You're on social media, I'm guessing.
[00:47:47] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Everyone can find me on all the platforms. The X, as everyone likes to call it.
Really the only platform you need. But if you happen to need another one, I'm on Blue Sky Facebook, Instagram threads I don't ever use, but I'm on threading.
[00:48:07] Speaker A: I think all of us got our name to make sure we had our handle.
[00:48:11] Speaker B: Another one better set up here, too.
I'm on all those at Zach Caps. Yeah, definitely. Reach out and let me know what you think when you do check it out in December, December 13.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: Let people know about that. It's great. Buy it for someone for. Get it for someone for a Christmas present. There you go.
[00:48:28] Speaker B: There you go.
[00:48:29] Speaker A: Someone put in their stocking. That's a stocking supper right there. Beyond real. Again, thank you, Zach, so much for taking the time out of your day to come on here, and we'll get you back on in the future.
[00:48:38] Speaker B: Love to. Thank you so much.
One Sam.
