[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to another episode of the Capes and Tights podcast right here on capesandtights.com dot. I'm your host, Justin Soderbergh. Once again, this episode is brought to you by our friends over at Galactic Comics and collectibles on Hammond street in Bangor, Maine. But you can also visit
[email protected] and find them over on social media as well. This episode features a return of New York Times bestselling author Jay Bon and Singha to the podcast. In the past, we've talked about his eight Walking Dead novels that he co wrote, the first four with Robert Kirkman and the last four he did by himself. But we're here this time to talk about his older book from 1997 called the Killers Game, which is getting a rerelease and trade paperback as well as a audiobook release, a new audiobook release that's a movie tie in cover for his adaptation that's hitting the screens here in September, the Killers Game, which is starring Dave Bautista as the main character. So we talked about that and a bunch of other things right here on this podcast episode. Jay Bon and singer and New York Times bestselling author. But before you listen, follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Blue sky threads, all that stuff, as well as rate reviews, subscribe, all that stuff over on Apple and Spotify and everywhere you get your podcasts as well as for much more stuff, check out capesandtice.com dot. But this is Jay Bon and Zynga returning to the podcast to talk about the killers game and its adaptation coming to screens near you. Enjoy, everyone.
Welcome back to the podcast. Jay, how are you today?
[00:01:34] Speaker B: I'm well. Thank you for having me again.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: Absolutely excited, excited, excited. I talk all the time about the Walking Dead novels with people because they go to, obviously go to my local comic book shop all the time. And I've always, I've talked to him, too, about the idea of carrying novels that based around comic book world. So like it's really easy for him to get a lot of the Marvel books nowadays because those are all published by Penguin Random House. And Penguin Random House you can, he can order from, because a lot of that's a cultural comic book distributor now. And I said some of the other ones are harder to get. Some of the ones I just read. I just finished Alex Segura's book alter ego. His book is coming out in December as a follow up to his other book, Secret Identity, which deals with the comic book industry as a mystery novel.
It's harder for him to get those novels because he doesn't have, like, a distributor to work with on that sense. But I was like, oh, I think it'd be great. I don't think he'd sell a time, but if you just carried, like, one copy of each of the books and then when you sell one, you replenish it, it would be great.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: I think. I think we live in a now, in a world of hybrid media, everything crosses over and it's going to just get more and more blurred.
Like the new Reeves Melville book, prose and comics are melding and, you know, in fact, I've seen, I've noticed in the, in the film business a lot more. It's almost like we've gone back to the seventies, because a lot more films are based on books, you know, and.
[00:03:13] Speaker A: The opposite now, I mean, they just saw, didn't they just announce the, the Maxine X, the Mia Goth series is now being adapted into a novelization of the movies. And it's like I've always said to people that I can't, I love watching movies and movies and tv and all that stuff is a big part of my life, but I can't do that. Only, like, I have to be, like, I was just mentioning, before we started recording, I was listening to the original killer's game audiobook while I was reading the novel. And I did that on the way to my camp. I can't watch the movie on the way to camp very safely unless I had some sort of self driving car or my wife drive in the passenger seat. So having a other way of taking in some media is well worth it, you know, laying in bed at night, absolutely. I can read a book, whereas watching a tv is a little more.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: I still to this day, you know, I've written 35 books. I still to this day, you know, think to myself as I'm working on a book, I'm working on a sequence, and I'm like, here's where we cut to a montage, you know, and I've always wondered, what is, what is a literary montage? What is that? What is it? I read like, you know, I know what it looks like. I know, you know, in the Godfather, one of the greatest montages is when they go to war, and then there's amazing montage that Coppola created, you know, of the guys going to the mattresses, you know, and I always think of that. And so I've experimented over the years with what is a montage in prose. You know, I've tried summaries I've tried ellipses, all these different. But when Kirkman first hired me, he goes, just write 50 pages. Just show me what you got.
I'm not going to direct, you know, the story. He gave me, like, an eight page outline, and I just thought, comics are closer to film, you know, for me, they're in the here and now. You know, they're constant forward movement, you know? So I thought, I'm going to put it in present tense.
And, you know, not exactly emulate a comic, but kind of deep down in the granular part of it. Nobody ever commented on whether it was a good idea or not to do president. The minute, you know, everybody's read it, it. It was like, yeah, you know, this is cool. This is working, you know, so, you know, I love that. I love that stuff. I got a film. I got a master's in film. I mean. I mean, I'm kind of a film brat myself, you know?
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:58] Speaker B: And so I don't make any distinction, you know, between the two mediums and comics, you know, that's what I tell my students. I teach creative writing at DePaul University, and I'm like, there's no difference. I teach screenwriting and novel writing for the same department. You know.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: You mentioned it's a blend nowadays. There really is that blend of things.
And I believe truly, that, especially with when, like, say, we're going to talk about the killers game here. You didn't go into writing the killers game, going, I've got to write this so it looks good on tv, like you wrote it, or on screen, you wrote it as a novel. You wanted to write this book for what? The book, the medium you were writing for, if someone purchases the rights to it. Great, awesome. We'll work on that afterwards. You're not sitting there going, it's like when you see a movie that's filmed with the idea that it's gonna be in three d, and it's obvious. You know what I mean? Like, you're looking at, like, the swords coming out the screen being like, that was filmed for the scene in 3d. You didn't do that on purpose. And I love that. The same thing with comic books nowadays. Like, it's great. It's the next step in the evolution of your creativeness, to have it be adapted, or at least being in the news that it's gonna be adapted. But don't sit there and write the thing to get adapted, because then it just becomes a whole other thing, and I don't believe that that's what you've been doing, which is great, but you can do a good job there.
[00:07:22] Speaker B: Some books are camera ready, but it's not because they were written that way.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: I still tell people, if you wanna read a book that's camera ready, and the author had no intention of it being made into a movie, but it's camera ready is silence of the lambs.
It's just perfectly structured, perfectly written, and, you know, and it's such a great read, but it is camera ready. If you, you know, Ted Talley, the guy who wrote the screenplay, he won the Academy Award, and I don't take anything away from him, but the book.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Was like, yes, you could almost follow along with the book and the movie at the same time, which doesn't always happen that way, because they need to change things and so on. Yeah, you're right. It's actually a good point. Like, I could just say hybrid reading measure. Hybrid watching the movie and the book at the same time. Be like, okay, I'm gonna watch this scene. I'm sure that chapter.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: Some nerd somewhere has done that. I talked to them.
[00:08:23] Speaker A: I've always, like, you know, like, when you go to a bookstore or any sort of a place where people congregate and are passionate about something. So for me, a lot of times, it's the comic book store, and I argue certain things, and the one thing I argue recently is why there hasn't been more walking dead, not issue 193 and 194 and so on and so forth. But why isn't there? I mean, uh, Todd McFarlane just did this whole spawn universe thing. So he had spawned, obviously, for years, and now there's, like, King Spawn, and there's salmon Twitch, and there's all these different things that relate back to the original series, and I'm like, that's like a. I feel like Kirkman doesn't need any more money. Let's be honest. He's probably set for life, but it feels like it's printing, printing money there by just doing a story and you. And there's what we have. We have eight books. Nine books, is it?
[00:09:12] Speaker B: Yeah, eight.
[00:09:13] Speaker A: Eight books of information that you could pull from, too. It's not even like you need to come up with new stories. Like, it's all right there. You could just put it in comic book format and put it out there, and it'd be another whole way for people to find your novels in a different way. And I. So I argue that all the time, and people are like, yeah, I don't. I don't think it's on Robert's mind to do that. Like, he wouldn't even have to write it. You could have someone. You could have big names in the comic book world, adapt it if you wanted to. You get some of these bigger names and be like, I'll do a series of five issue series or whatever. And I was like, yeah, I'm just being selfish because I like your book so much, and I like the walking big comic book so much that I'm like, I just want more of it. So, like, it's just me being selfish at that point. Yeah.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: You know, Robert, he is on many levels, he's a great artist because he's constantly thinking about the next thing he wants to do.
He's not looking backward. I agree with everything you just said. And he probably goes, all right, it's an asset. It's in the bank. It's an asset I have. I can do anything I want to with him, and God bless him. But for a while, he was experimenting with his mini little, you know, backstory for Negan, and he was, you know, packaging things like that. But, you know, he's like you just said, he's constantly thinking about the next thing, and he has, you know, so much, you know, gravitas that he doesn't. He doesn't need to worry about not doing something. You know, he could not something for the rest of his life and be.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: Very well, yeah, I listen to Kevin Smith's podcast a lot. The Fat man beyond podcast, and he always mentions the thing where it was like, he makes the exaggeration joke about, Kirkman has more money than God and all this other stuff, and it's like, yeah, I mean, he's not worried about finances at this point. I don't think with his invincible work and with the Walking Dead and Walking Dead tv show and all that stuff he's doing, he's got his hands full. But as a comic book lover, it's one of those things that I just go back to the medium that made you where you are now, and that would be the walking dead. But also, the walking dead, in my mind, is somewhat perfect. So, like, as it sits, like, there isn't too much. There's your novels. They're the Walking Dead, 193 issues. There's the Typhoon novel, right? And there's a couple others, like alien, which is the book that Brian K. Vaughn did, which is, like, one ish, one straw. Those are the only that, like, that's it. Don't water it down, either, too. Also, like, if you want to read Walking Dead stuff, though. You've got stuff to read. If you want to watch the show, you got it. So I can see both sides of it. But I've always, like, if I want to be selfish in buying. Cause I'm buying all the deluxe walking Dead comics now, the ones that are in color. Cause he's, like, wrote me, I just need to give more money to Robert Kirkman. No, he. So I would say I would buy it. So if you give me this, you know, rise of the governor in a comic book format, I would 100% be on board getting it. But again, I don't know if it's necessary either, though. That's the thing. So, like, I've got my book I can go back to and read and so on, but, yeah, that's my. I wanted to get that off my chest a little bit here at the beginning.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: I agree with you. That's a really good point.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: It on a regular basis, and people are like, you need to shut up, Justin. Like, okay, we understand. You want more walking Dead comic books. Please stop. Like, we understand. But 14 years prior, is that 1997 when you released the killers game for the first time, or is that. Am I right about that? And I'm guessing you were writing it years prior to that.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: I wrote it in 94. Actually, I wrote the pitch in 94 and sold it on the pitch because it had this engine in it.
I always joke with my wife.
That was my cash cow. That was my golden goose. This whole idea that there's a hitman.
He's got a code he lives by.
He's a killing machine, but he's well put together.
He's, other than killing people, he's a decent human being.
And at the beginning of the story, he learns that he has a terminal illness. So, you know, as they do, he's a hit man. He puts a hit on himself.
Everybody. Everybody, like, sits forward when I say that, and then I say, and, you know, the twist is, you know, he puts this global hit on himself as a game just to see who it will be, who can kill him. And, you know, 15 minutes before the game is set to start, he gets a note from the lab that they got the wrong blood test. And his doctor's like, so that's all I had in 1994, I just wrote that pitch. I pitched it to my agent at the time. He's like, wow, yeah, there's something here. And he goes, I think I could even just take this, because I made, like, a little 25 page pitch.
[00:14:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:11] Speaker B: Introduced the character and made the pitch, and he's like, yeah, I might even be able to sell this, you know, don't do anything yet. Let's see if I can sell this. And he did. He had a. He had an auction, and he had, like, two publishers that wanted it, and so. And then he got. He got this amazing dude, Andrew Lazar. His. I think it's his great uncle, who was a legendary agent, swifty Lazar.
And most people in the film business go, oh, God. Yeah, I remember that guy.
I think he was, like Sinatra's agent or something.
But Andrew is this super cool, super bright producer.
He basically discovered the Washakski brothers, and he's really good. So he bought the rights to it in 95. So it's been. It'll be 30 years in a few months. It'll be 30 years from the time he bought the rights. He was 27 years old. He was 27 years old. He's 57 now. That's how long it took him to get the movie made.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: I'm trying to think of, like, 30 years. I'm trying to think of, like, your main star in the movie was 25. You know what I mean? Like, Dave Bautista was only 25 years old when. When this rights were sold and wasn't even probably doing much in the acting world or something like that. He was wrestling at the time. He wasn't even thinking. If someone would have said to you 30 years ago that this professional wrestler was going to be the main star of the movie, he'd been like, what are you talking about? But I'm sure there's people in the movie that weren't even born yet. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, you know, there's people in the movie that were probably under the age of ten or so on and so for when the book came out. And so that's actually kind of funny. It's funny. We've talked to many people. So we've had Daniel Krause on with whale fall being, uh, uh, purchased, the rights being purchased and so on. Actually, Daniel's on an episode around this, too, because we're. We're talking about his new book, uh, um, pay the piper. But, um, we've talked to, you know, Adam Caesar was on a couple weeks ago, which is talking about his clown, the cornfield book that's also being adapted. And, um. But a lot of times we talk to people about, oh, cool, it's. The rights have been purchased. This is awesome. One day you'll get a film, and this is now getting to a point where we're getting able to talk to someone who's like, no, your, your movie's like, it's, it's being prepared to be put into the theaters right now. The wheels are being sent to people and getting the, you know, this is actually happening. It's actually coming to fruition for you. However, it has taken you 30 years to get this done.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: You know what? I'll give you a little sort of dirty little secret.
It's good if that happens to an author, a book author, it's good. That's, you should hope for 30 years of development because you have to keep optioning it.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: It's like passive income. I would like, for years, I would have, you know, I would. Even for. I would forget about it. I wouldn't even remember it, you know? And I get this call from the agent at CAA who had represented it in the film world, and he's like, Jay, I got good news. I got a check sitting on my.
[00:17:23] Speaker A: Desk for you because someone else is wanting to know anything.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: You know, it's, you know, I mean, yeah, it's really exciting and fun and cool to see, even if you hate the film.
My feeling is if, if you, even if you can't stand the film, it's still exciting to know that, you know, your work, your, your story is going to be on 2000 screens across the country, you know, and it's got these great actors in it. You know, all this money has been spent on it. It's just a super big compliment to an author.
I mean, James Cain, the guy that wrote the postman, always rings twice.
He once said, when asked, well, how do you feel about all your books being made into crappy movies and just ruining your books? And he goes, actually, where I'm sitting right now, I can see my books. They're on a shelf right across the room, and they look fine to me.
Nothing has happened to this.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Yes, nothing's changed. Nothing can go back there and change those now.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: All finer bookstores, you know.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:18:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And I kind of feel that way. You had your say, you know, let somebody else, you know, it's a huge compliment. Somebody else wants to do another version of it. They said, my book is set in Chicago and the screenplay is pretty loyal, faithful to the book, but they set it in Europe. That was the big change.
They said, it's all the great european assassins.
[00:19:06] Speaker A: Yeah, well, let's say it's also, things have changed if you think about how different the world is 30 years after you wrote the book. So there's some things that probably need to change. Just solely on that fact. The fact that you, what you were living at the time, what you were going through your brain, what was what you were living going places and doing things are different 30 years later. So having this book be adapted, you know, if it was adapted and someone bought it in 97, 95, and by 2000 the movie came out, it might have been way different than what it is now. And so it's almost nice to have that ability to have 30 years of, to percolate and do all that stuff and look at it. If you look at the Wikipedia page, which is obviously not always 100% accurate, but the number of actual stars that have also been attached to this movie, not only have you been able to get checks over and over and over again for people purchasing it, but like, but like, you at one point, like Wesley Snipes is attached. Like Michael Keaton was attached at times, like the number of names that, like, ended up happening. And in the ending, having Dave Bautista be your star is not a horrible thing. I mean, he's got some pretty good comic book fans. I remember big love for him.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Years ago when I saw him. You know, I think maybe the first, it was the first time I, I'm not a huge pro wrestling fan, although my best friend, everybody I work with in the business, they're all like, huge. In fact, all the horror authors I could name, you know, the roll call of the great horror authors that love pro wrestling. Some kind of, I don't know, there's some kind of continuity here that I never really understood. But I remember seeing him in Blade Runner and I was like, this guy can act.
He's huge, but he can act. He can play anything.
And also that's how him playing Joe Flood in the Killers game came about because he had a meeting with Andrew and he goes, I don't know why nobody is interested in having, this is kind of funny, but I don't know why. I don't know why there's nobody out there that's interested in putting me in a rom.com. yes, I want to be a star in a rom.com. and so Andrew's like, well, I've got an action film. That's an action rom.com.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: And that's how he got, he got, he came aboard.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: It's, it's, it's, it's absolutely perfect. And honestly, it's one of those things is, it's almost, honestly, I like the idea of, I do read a lot of books that have been adapted or are adaption. I try to go back and forth. Like a lot of the Stephen King books, I'm always like, sometimes I read the book first and then watch the movie. Sometimes I watch the movie first and I read the book and so on and so forth. And it was funny, though. It's like I knew that it was being made into a film for the Killers game. I read the book, and I was like, halfway through the book is when I actually looked at the cast, they looked at who's starring in the film and so on and so forth, and I was like, actually fits to me. I feel like, I don't know, something about Joe's rough industry that he's in, but also cuddly because, like, I don't know, Dave Bautista has this weird ability that I feel like he would cuddle really well at the same time as also shoot people in the head.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: He has chemistry with, with Sophia on screen that you'll. You'll be blown away by. Like, he has. He has chemistry. You know, you can't really learn that. It's just. It's got to be there. You know, he's got, in real life, he loves dogs and he takes shelter dogs and he trains them and he loves them and he travels with them. You know, it's. I mean, every. I learned, I met so many, I became friends, actually, with a lot of villains when I worked at the Walking Dead, you know, guys were just always playing these scary, you know, characters, and they're, to a person, they're the sweetest, warmest, nicest people you'll ever meet, you know, it's amazing. Giancarlo Esposito.
[00:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: You know, just friendly, you know, down to earth. Just. He's got his shit together, you know, David Morrissey, you know, fun, funny. He loves rock and roll. He's got a radio show in England. You know, he, you know, these people are super cool, you know, and that's.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Why I love conventions, because the convention gives the ability for you to actually meet these people or now with social media and live videos and podcasting and interviews and tv shows, because before we saw these people as, that's who the people are in real life, and people expect that when they meet them, like, oh, Dave, BTZ is probably going to crush me in my head when I see him. He's like, no, he's probably going to put his arm around you and say, how's it going? And so on and so forth. It's just this experience we get having a. How many people think that, you know, Negan is Negan, like, that's that's the negan that you think that, like, he actually bashes people in for it with his head.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Or the bat. That's not. I mean, Jeffrey Dean Morgan is a lovable dude as well. So, like, there's that side of things that you don't see and. Yeah, and sometimes, you know, and you get cast into a certain role. Like, obviously, the benefit Dave Bautista has over some other people is that when he was in his Guardians of Galaxy movies, he would had makeup on in special effects, so, like, he didn't look just like himself being Drax, which is. Gives him the ability to be other characters. I mean, I'm sure Daniel Radcliffe can never really ever be in a movie ever again with not being, oh, that's Harry Potter in a movie. Like, even watching his weird Al was like, oh, that's. That's Harry Potter dressed up like Weird Al. It's a really weird version of that character. And so he's a.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: True.
[00:24:39] Speaker A: It's like, oh, Harry Potter. What is the actor? He's an actor now. Harry Potter grew up and left his magic behind, and now he's gonna start acting as weird Al, but had to make it. Same thing with palm in this. In this film as well, and having mantis behind her. And that's all makeup and special effects and things like that. That that person can move on to be a different person. So that's a benefit to them. But also brings in people who are comic book fans to watch this movie because we're like, oh, two characters that we're. And Ben Kingsley was also in a Marvel movie, so there's that, too, right?
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Yeah. The ultimate. The ultimate, you know, superhero role for a big time actor to play would be Deadpool. You can see him. He doesn't even have to show up.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: I will say you see a lot more of his face in this new movie.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: That's funny. I've heard that you see a lot.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: More of it, and they actually make a joke. And it is a nice deadpool. And they make a joke about how, where's your mask? And the nice Deadpool's like, have you seen this face? Like, why would I want to wear a mask over this face? Come on. People like, come on. And it's actually kind of funny. I've read an article this morning that it's been 34 years since a husband and wife duo were the top two movies at the box office on the weekend. So, like, Deadpool obviously has Ryan Reynolds in it. And then Colleen Hoover's movie, it ends with us it stars Blake Lively, and they're the top two movies in the theater this weekend. Last time it happened, I forgot who it was now, but I forget who it was now, but it was, it was, it was 34 years ago. And I was, I told my wife, I'm like, it could never have happened. But no, it definitely happened because obviously actors and actresses a lot of times end up getting married. Yeah, right. It might have been Demi Moore and was it Bruce Willis? Is that they married at one point? Yes, it might have been that. I'm trying to think of now who it was. I was just so focused on the fact that it was Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively. But yeah, there was, 34 years ago, the top two movies were husband and wife were starring in the movies. But yeah, it's pretty crazy. It's pretty crazy.
[00:26:32] Speaker B: I've had dreams over the last 30 years of different versions of the film, and I would dream that because John Woo was signed on to be the director at one point. And so I have had dreams where Bruce Willis was Joe Flood and John Wu was directing it, and my dream was really vivid and like, and I, you know, one of my favorite films of all time is the killer, you know, Chow Yun Fat, the mise. Insane is just, it's ridiculous. It's so great. And so I would have dreams where Bruce Willis was in a film like that directed by John Woo. And it was my story.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: Yeah. By the way, it was Bruce Willis and Demi Moore was die hard to and ghost. That was the, that was the one back in the day. So it's 34 years ago, right around the same time that your killers game movie.
Right from the beginning of that. But no, so obviously we're both still alive. I mean, this is a, it's a, it's a, it's a book that is, I absolutely loved it. I was mentioning before we started recording, too, that I listened to the audiobook and read it. And it was narrated by, you mentioned earlier, Robert Foster. Yes. Which is hard for, again, talking about people in other roles. All I could picture was him playing this character in heroes, the tv show on NBC years ago. So in my mind, I was just thinking, I was picturing that character reading the book.
But, but no, it was wonderfully narrated there. But the benefit of also this adaptation and this movie coming out is that you're also getting rereleasing of your stuff. So like, that's a big thing. And so that's a huge thing. I've always wanted to wonder to people who write a lot of books who get adapted into films like, say, Stephen King, for example, or something like that.
Seeing the movie cover, it's like a. I always like the original cover. So, like, I'm always going to love the killer's game. Like, this is going to always mean something to me because it's the original and probably same thing for you and so on and so forth.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: That's awesome.
[00:28:37] Speaker A: Being the movie cover. That must be a weird trip too, though. Like, to see that, like these, these multi million dollar stars are on the COVID of your book now.
Like, it's like, it's a weird, uh, weird thought.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: It is weird in the best sense of the word, weird.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: But you're getting a novel, you're getting a paperback rerelease, right? With a, with a movie timing cover and a new audiobook recording, which, which makes sense because the audiobook recording was 30 years ago. So that does make sense to get a new recording it as well.
But it's gonna be back on the shelves. It's gonna be like, people are actually gonna be able to get it without having to try to find it. What does that mean? I mean, that must be not great to have it adapted, but this must be special to you to have it back on the shelves again, too.
[00:29:17] Speaker B: Absolutely, man. I mean, you know, my kids, I have two boys that are in their twenties and they're both musicians. They both are in punk bands. They're, they're just, you know, heavy, you know, hardcore rockers and everything. But that's, that's their favorite book, that, of mine that I've ever written. You know, they read it and they loved it and they talk about it to this day. So it's so cool to see that have another life, you know, and it's the ship that, you know, raises all other ships, you know, I've got, you know, a lot of other stuff cooking and, you know, it's, it, I, you know, I guess the message that I have been giving other people now is just don't give up.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: Don't give up. You never know. Yeah, it's a crazy business. It's, it's a crazy culture. You know, things go out of style, then they come back into style and then they go, you know, who would have thought, like Patricia Highsmith, when you said, you know, novelists who get movie maids from their movies made from their books that then become even bigger and have more ideas and blossom, you know, she, she's like a perfect example of that. When Hitchcock fell in love with her work and started making films like, you know, strangers on a train. She got huge and could call her own shots and, you know, moved to Italy and just started writing these great, you know, Ripley books. But who thought that, you know, the original Ripley book would become like, it's probably the hottest series in the last year, I would think, you know, it's probably the most award winning series. And I thought it was brilliant. I was riveted to it. And I read the book like twice, you know, and I've seen the other movie like twice, but I just, I was blown away by how good it was, you know, getting a whole new life.
[00:31:21] Speaker A: But also, like, this is, we talk at the beginning, too, about the idea of having a multimedia, different things, to read things or to intake things. And, and one of those people are like, I was at my camp this weekend and my sister in law's boyfriend, we were talking about books and reading, and I am crazy, but, you know, we're, what, August, middle of August now, I've read over 100 books this year, which again, I do a little hybrid. So I do audiobook, physical book, so there is an easier doing the dishes. I can listen to an audiobook where I can't physically read a book. But that he was like, I just don't, just don't read books. But there's a possibility that someone falls in love with the killers game on screen. They go see it in the theaters. This is amazing. Oh, this is based on the book. Maybe they'll pick the book up, they'll read the book and go, oh, I'm a walking dead fan. I'll read those. Or I know who Stan Lee is and I want to read something that you work with Stan Lee and things like that, or any of your other books that are out there, it probably is the name. Your name is not infamous, but like, your name might get bigger because of that. You might have doors that open for you and so on and so forth. So this is a big deal. And not just the idea that you're now getting another version of a media of your book, but I mean, to me, it's like, I want people to know who your name is because I really enjoy your books. I think you have a talent in writing, and so I think that's where, again, it's really cool to see that. And I think that having it come out, even if the killer game never got actually on the screen, but was adapted into like a audio drama with sound effects and things like that, solely, it would have been another medium. Someone could have, you know, intake to your book, but seeing it on the big screen must be. I mean, I think I'm like, I'm excited for you, like, having had you on the podcast and things like that. Like, I'm gonna get a group of people. We're gonna go see the movie. The day that comes after.
Are you there still?
I see you. Fine.
I see you shaking that thing. You still there?
[00:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm still there. You froze for a second.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Oh, weird.
[00:33:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: But back, I'm. I'm gonna go get a group of people and go see the movie. Excited for you. Like, it's like. I know, I know. It's like one of those things that I'm like, there's no real reason. It's not like my book got adapted into a movie, but I'm going to bring people to the theaters to see.
[00:33:38] Speaker B: It's. You can't. You know, I mean, when you see it, I think you'll know exactly what I mean when I say it's an action film for walking dead lovers, because it's so. It's so gory and bloody, like, almost over the top. But that's kind of the point of it, because my book was, you know, if you have a chance to. You know, if listeners and people out there have a chance to read or listen to the book. By the way, quick sidebar. People sometimes tell me, I read your book. Oh, well, I'm sorry. I didn't read it. I listened to it, and I go, no, you read it.
[00:34:26] Speaker A: Yeah, you read it.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Listening to it is the same thing. And most. Most audiobooks are unabridged today, so, you know, if somebody, you know, listens to it, you know, they'll. They'll get the humor. There was dark humor in the original book.
I meant, you know, I wanted. I worked on that. It's. It's not easy to get tone in it in prose. You know, it takes a little skill and stuff. And that was only my third book. I was, you know, I was still, like, learning the craft and stuff. I always am. I still am. But they punched it up for the movie. They brought in a comedy writer. They punched it up. So it's really funny, but it's still as gory and exciting, kind of violent as the original book, you know? So, like, anyway, I don't know.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: No, it makes sense because I also feel like one of the things I thought about after reading it was that it was ahead of its time in a sense.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: Like.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Like, I feel like if people. If. If people didn't know, if they just picked up the movie tie in, trading paperback from the shelves, read it, then went in the theaters and saw it or the opposite or whatever. I don't think they would have known it was originally made in the nineties. I don't think that it screams 1997 when you read the killer's game. Honestly, it screams a movie or idea that came out with in the mid 2015, 2016. Like, it screams that to me instead of the opposite. So it's like, it doesn't seem like it's taken 30 years for it to finally hit the screen. It seems like to me, it would be like, oh, yeah, you wrote this book, like, two years ago, and it's finally there. I mean, there are some people that get that lucky that it ends up being that fast tracked to screen.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: I mean, some. Some things, you know, it's not that I'm a genius, and I came up with something that is ahead of its time. It's just like, I got. I mean, I. Maybe I've, you know, you and I have known each other for a while. I might have already mentioned this to you, but I got an offer before. It's new line cinema picked it up. They were the original studio that, that picked it up from Andrew. But before they picked it up and before Andrew bought the rights to it, I got an offer from.
I won't mention any names. Yes, I'll probably be sued, but I got an offer from a major studio, and they called up my agent, and they're like, we'd like to offer you $250,000 for the rights to Jay's book the Killers game. And so my agent's like, oh, okay, let me see. Well, first of all, Jay's a screenwriter, so he'd love to be involved in the screenwriting and, you know, the screenplay. And they go, oh, it's already written.
And my agent's like, what? Yeah, it's already written.
In fact, we just, we're going to cannibalize three scenes from it, okay? And my agent's like, a quarter of a million dollars for three scenes. Yeah, okay, I'm still it. I'm listening. I'm still interested. And so he goes, he goes, will jay receive any credit? And they're like, no, no, no. No one can know about this. And you have to take the book off the market, and you can never sell it.
Wow. Then it became really, you know, I was. I was, you know, in my twenties, I was hungry. I needed money, you know, like I always do. But I just thought, no, you know, there's something here. You know, I got something here. No. And so we finally said, no, they stole one of them anyway.
[00:38:07] Speaker A: Well, that seems like a very common practice out there right now, too. We see that a lot in the world where people are like, wow, that looked a lot like what I wanted to do.
[00:38:16] Speaker B: It's like I mentioned, it's set in Chicago, and, you know, there's a scene on the elevated train, you know, which is part of Chicago's, you know, culture, and they just moved it to a different place.
[00:38:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:30] Speaker B: You know, same scene. That's not a penny off of it. But I made the right decision.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Obviously nowadays. Yeah. It's one of those things we had. I had a friend, again, I want to name names, things like that, but I had a friend who. Who pitched the idea of a certain thing that you choose your own adventure, which choose your own adventure is actually trademarked and copyright.
[00:38:49] Speaker B: Oh, right, right.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: You can't say, choose your own adventure. You have to say, like, pick your own destiny or some sort of other thing to say. But he has a graphic novel out that you can pick. Where you go is go to page 26. And he had pitched the idea to a streaming network, and they said, no, we're going to pass whatever. He moved on. Well, not far after that, they had a reality tv show that did the same thing.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: I knew you were going to say.
[00:39:11] Speaker A: That, eat this or don't eat this kind of thing, and you had to pick on the screen whether or not he ate it or not, and that ended up being something on there. And I'm like, all it was is like, obviously nothing to do with the original project, but maybe it's possible that the idea of a choose your own adventure style interactive thing got in their head, like, oh, we could do that. We'll just do it with something else. And so it's not uncommon for that.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: It's not. It's not. It's not impossible that they already had that in development.
[00:39:34] Speaker A: Yes. People think the same things. Yes.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Keith Richards once said, there's no new ideas. They're just all out there floating like spores, and you just have to be open to it. I think there's a lot of truth to that, but maybe it takes a lot of drugs. I don't know.
[00:39:59] Speaker A: Yes, that's possible, too.
I'm glad in the sense that I got to read the killers. Gibbs, you passing on that offer at the beginning with this movie? Did you get the ability to go along for the ride with this movie? Did you ever get to visit the set and all that stuff, too? Or was it basically just okay. They have my book, and I'll see it when it gets done.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: Well, no, physically, I didn't make it to Budapest, but it was in Budapest, Hungary.
Oddly, my son was on tour, and he played in a bar in Budapest when they were shooting it, which is, like, a weird coincidence.
But I was really treated well by Andrew and Rand, the screenwriter. Rand Rav, she's like a great screenwriter, and he's a director in his own right. He's a great director, too. But Rand and I really traded ideas a lot, and he was always really respectful. But he gave me.
Rand gave me the gift that maybe made the difference in the book.
And he called me up one day and he goes, look, I know it's your book, because, like I said, I sold it on the pitch. So I was working on it while this movie was in development, in the early stages of development.
And so he calls me up one day, and he goes, and I won't. I mean, because it's a movie now. I won't the spoiler. But he gives me this great idea, and I'm like, man, that's like a third act. Yeah, big third act twist. I'm going to use that. And it just elevated the book.
And, you know, I mean, I gave him credit in this afterward that I wrote in the new edition of the book, so, you know, but, yeah, but like I said, I don't. I've never made any distinction between screenwriting and prose writing. You know, it's the same story structures that you use, the same hero's journey, the same, you know, three act paradigm, whatever you prefer, you know?
And so, you know, it was a great experience. The whole thing was a great experience, except the waiting. It was like. But I was being paid to wait.
[00:42:29] Speaker A: The worst part, I mean, I know there was probably some delays because of the pandemic and all that stuff, but the worst part would have been for it to, like, like, have a scheduled date to be, like, released and then have it be, like, delayed even more because of the payment. Like. Like, that would have been even worse, probably just to be like, it's supposed to come out September 10, and you're like, oh, we're going to come out with it in two years, or it's going to go direct to video or something like that. Like, at least having the ability to be able to wait through the past four or five years.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: There was a strike.
[00:42:55] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:42:56] Speaker B: The longest strike in the history of show business.
Right. As they were. They were in pre production. They were gonna shoot, and the strike happened. I couldn't believe it. I was like, okay, this is a book in itself.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: The curse of the killers game.
[00:43:14] Speaker A: Now I feel like you need to do that. Now I think you need to do this adaptation, book adaptation of your real life journey of this move, this. This book, and have it be that, like, this. Way more fictionalized than it actually was, though. Like, all this. People stole it. Someone came to the set and took the actual stuff off the set and, like, you know, made it so they couldn't read this for 30 years. Finally we saw. Finally I saw it and actually was good. People were like, actually, the movie should be in the adaptation. That movie at the end should be bad, though. Like, it took 30 years to come out, and it was really sucks. Like, that's the better part of it. Like, that would be even better story.
[00:43:46] Speaker B: I got a. I got a call years ago from my agent, and he's like, hey, I got some news about the killers game. And I'm like, really? The Killers games? Going before the cameras. He goes, no, no, no.
There's just an article online about the top ten longest periods of development hell and the killers games in that ten. Like, really? That's the good news?
[00:44:13] Speaker A: It's being mentioned. All news is good news right now. I mean, at least it's being made because some of those ten are probably still in development hell. So it's one of those things that. And I think that's a misconception to a lot of it. I do get this. You know, we're at over 180 episodes. I talked to a lot of people, and a lot of comic book or writers or artists or authors have waited a long time, and not as long as 30 years, but have waited a long time for their thing to get picked up and actually for us to put it in front of our eyes. And some people have more direct routes to it. Like with Mark Miller has a direct route because a lot of his stuff is owned by Netflix as it is when he writes a comic book that's already being in pre production for a movie.
But to see that journey, to go through and see that stuff that actually happen, it takes a while. 30 years is a long time. But just letting anybody know out there, it's like when my co workers at work, because we did a beer.
I work at Orino Brewing company. I'm a graphic designer and creative director by day. And so we partnered with Daniel Krause to do a beer for Whalefall when he came up with Whalefall last year, and right after we released the beer and after the book was released, like, what, two or three weeks later? You know, it got announced that the film rights had been purchased and so on and so forth. And people at my work were like, oh, my gosh, I can't wait to see this film. Like, yeah, we'll do a 10th anniversary beer for this. For this film. Because in ten years, when the movie's actually made, we'll go see the theater. In their mind, they were. They were all like, let's go see the movie next week. And I'm like, it's gonna be a while before this movie is actually like. Like, they bought the rights to retain the rights to have the ability to make this movie. It does not mean they'll ever will make this movie. It's just they now own the rights to make it if they want to. And so.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: Have you ever read the living?
[00:45:57] Speaker A: The Living Dead?
[00:45:58] Speaker B: The living Dead?
[00:45:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:59] Speaker B: Daniel Krause, George Romero book. I love that book, man.
[00:46:05] Speaker A: It's phenomenal.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: Yes, I love.
Daniel and I are from the same town.
He lives in Evanston, Illinois. I lived there for a long time.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: I can say it now because I know this episode we're actually. I'm recording backwards, but Daniel's episode comes out before this episode, technically, is that we're actually doing another beer with him for the pay the Piper book that he did with George A. Romero that comes out also in September. And so I reached out to him again, and I was like, hey, it'd be pretty cool. I would love to have my work attached to and my ability to attach to George A. Romero as well as you. And so we're doing that again. So we're going to announce that by the time this episode drops. But, yeah, we're doing another with him, which is really exciting in the future. I went to my local bookstore, the briar patch, and I was talking to Gibran, the owner, and I'm like, at some point, I'll do book beer collaborations again with someone other than Daniel. Because at this point, it's just weird, because there's no real connection other than the fact that I had Daniel on the podcast a couple of years ago, and he had reached out afterwards saying that he has a book coming out that deals with whales and that Maine, I mean, from Maine. And so Maine has a whale population, and we have a big whale thing. And he says it makes sense for a brewery in Maine to do a whale themed beer. And so that makes sense. So then we brought Daniel out, and Daniel did a signing and a bunch of stuff out here and, and so on. But, like, then I saw him doing this pay the piper thing. I'm like, oh, we'll do that. That'd be cool, too. But I'm like, at some point, it's not going to make any sense anymore. Like, Daniel just has this weird connection to Maine Brewery that's making these beers for him. So I think the next one, we'll have to pick a different author. Also put our, put our feelers out there for books that are coming out. That makes sense to have a beer to go with it. But, yeah, it's fun. It was, it was a fun. And, yeah, with whale fall, it's taking on. It's going to be a while before that movie comes out, and it takes time. It's not simply just, it's not good enough or, or whatever. There's a lot of business that goes into it, obviously, as you know. But once it is okay, we're actually going to do this. This is actually happening. There's casting there, you know, there's Sethe, you know, you know, trying to see where the sets are going to be in location scouting. It takes a long time to make a movie, not just business wise. It does physically take a long time to make a movie, too.
[00:48:20] Speaker B: What. What kind of beer, uh, is. Is it is Daniel's.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: It's an ipa, so it's an ipa, um, that we made with this thing called phantasm. So if anybody knows anything about making beers, whatever. But there's hops that go in beer, right? There's a certain type of hops. There's also certain.
There's. So there's certain flavors of hops. There's certain types of those flavors. So there's, like, cryo hops, which are like, cryo frozen, and then there's powders, and there's liquids, and there's this thing called phantasm. And it's a special blend that this company makes out of Yakima chief, I believe it's called, makes him. So we put it into whale fall. It was a special thing. It had to give it, gave it a special body to it, a color to it, special flavor to it. And so with only beer we've ever made with this special blend of hops in it was that one beer beer. There's a new blend of that hop, that fantasm with a different type of hop. And that's the one that's going to be in this pay the piper beer. So it's like the two beers we've ever made with this special blend are going to be the two Daniel Krause beers and just different versions of it. So it's a similar beer to the other one, but it's pretty cool. So, yeah, it's pretty cool. I don't. Daniel's probably never going to come back to Maine after his trip here. But no, he's not coming up this time. But, you know, it's nice to do his via, you know, it's being, let's say Monday, it's being put into cans on Thursday. I'm going to overnight him a couple of four packs because we're going to record next Monday and hopefully he'll be able to have the beer in his hand.
[00:49:49] Speaker B: I'll definitely tune in.
You could do a beer for the killers game and make it a red for blood.
[00:49:58] Speaker A: Well, it was funny because I think other people, someone else mentioned because I had Adam Caesar on and we were talking about his new clown in the cornfield book that comes out in September. And I was, or actually comes out next week in August. And I was like, oh, that'd be kind of cool. Do a clown theme. One, we have Stephen King's from Main. So you have the it and all that stuff. Then I realized that I remembered that clown on the cornfield is actually a young adult horror. And I'm not sure that Harper teen would be very, very keen on the idea of having a beer attached to a Harper teen book. I'm like, that doesn't seem like it's going to work very well. But I mean, to kill this game, it's too late now because, I mean, obviously we try to market around it, but yeah, you know, we could be in touch if there's ever a way that it makes it connect to a J. Bun Singer book. But yeah, you know, I mean, if we, if you can get me in touch with Robert Kirkman, we could do a walking dead book, I would be.
[00:50:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Okay.
[00:50:46] Speaker A: But no, it's a fun thing. We had an article in the paper about being like a literate. It's a new way because, like, I guarantee you, and this is not just me tooting my own horn, but guarantee you that at least 10, 15, 20 books of whalefall were purchased because of the fact that we did this beer. Like that seems like a lower number, but I'm just saying, like, it's probably way more than that. But the idea that I know of, in my head, I can count 1015 books that someone went out and purchased the book not knowing who Daniel was, not knowing it doesn't read regularly because they're like, oh, this is another avenue of advertisement, in a sense, another promotional avenue, and, which is pretty cool. So, you know, the small amount of work that it actually got put into doing it, like we were going to make a beer anyway. You know, that tank would have been filled with liquid at some point, right? And so, so it would have had a label on it at some point. So, you know, it took very little effort to do that. And I think I said, daniel, probably got an extra 20 books sold because of it, if not more.
I would think there's more. I just like to say 1020 because I don't want to, I don't want to say there was thousands of books. I don't want to do my, that much.
[00:51:48] Speaker B: But there were all different kinds of walking dead beers, now that I think about it. I, I received some in the mail.
They would give, give them out at Christmas time, everybody on the crew and everything. So there were some cool ones. But it's vertical integration.
Vertical integration.
It's a great idea. And I love Daniel. I want him to be gigantic success.
[00:52:18] Speaker A: Well, he's got three books on the horizon now that I've announced. I mean, you got two book beyond that saga.
[00:52:23] Speaker B: Prolific. Yeah.
[00:52:26] Speaker A: Fall now is a book coming out for him. It seems like it's been announced. And we actually talked to him on a previous, talked about him on a previous podcast, and then he's like, his next book's like a Sci-Fi book. And the book, it's not like you'd say he's a horror writer. He's just like, he's a writer that writes something different. He doesn't have books that are like he had mentioned before. The only one that has, like, that's his own book. He writes a couple of co authored books that are sequel have sequels, but his own sequel is life and Death of Zebulun Finche. But that's only because the publisher said, you cannot make that into one book. I'm sorry. It's not gonna be allowed because the book itself would have been like a humongous book. But he's just like, oh, I want to write different genres. I want to write different things. And I'm like, hey, it makes sense. I mean, if you, you gotta be excited to write, and if you're not excited to write the same thing over and over again, then it's not gonna come out good.
[00:53:12] Speaker B: I mean, that's, that's, that's why Richard Bachman exists, because, you know, because Stephen King wanted to write, you know, thrillers and crime and, and, you know, because he's a great writer, you know, and, you know, I'm all in favor of it.
[00:53:27] Speaker A: And then that's, that's to me, I mean, I found out about you via walking dead, the Walking Dead books. And that's. And that's probably, I mean, I would, you probably would admit it. There's a lot of people who found out about your writing from that. I mean, that's a name that probably having Kirkman's name on it, but also having the words the walking dead on it and legally be able to call it the Walking Dead and have it attached to the thing. Probably did it. And hopefully the same thing happens with having this movie come out is the fact that some people be like, wait, it's based on a book. This is pretty awesome. I should read this. I highly recommend the book. I mean, you know, forget the. The movie never came on. I love the idea of reading the book because the book was phenomenal, and it's, it's unique in this. It's not a unique story as in a hitman's in it. The Hitman story has been told thousands of times, but, like, the idea that you have a terminal illness and someone, you're like, oh, I'll put a hit on it myself. That'd be the way to go out. You know, get rid of the money they have and so on and have them be called the next day. It reminds me of an episode of Seinfeld where the yogurt for Rudy Giuliani's yogurt got mixed up with the lab, and they got crossed it. They, like, oh, it's blood levels were through the roof or whatever, and come to find out, it was just a mix up. Giuliani didn't go out and start, like, you know, know, put a hit out on himself, but, like, you know, it seems like an exaggerated version of that.
And I love Seinfeld, so that doesn't, doesn't piss me off.
[00:54:50] Speaker B: When I was a kid, I loved the movie. It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world.
[00:54:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: And I kind of, I think maybe even unconsciously, I had that in the back of my mind when I was starting to figure out the killers game. You know, I'm like, it becomes like this, you know, international chase and all these crazy personalities who are all different kinds of assassins. Chase him.
It could be dick. Sean.
[00:55:27] Speaker A: How small of a world I live in or how safe in a world they kind of technically live in. They're like, the worst fear is sending a text message or an email and wanting to retract that email because I accidentally sent that, let alone say, hey, all assassins in the world, the hitmen in the world would just kill me and then be like, oh, shit, I shouldn't have done that because I can live and I can be alive. And also having the mental capacity to go back from that. In your book, if you talk about Joe Flood, when he puts that hit out on himself, I guarantee you, in his mind, he is in his mind going, okay, I'm gonna die. Like, he's already decided that, like, his life is over, it's not going on anymore. I don't have to worry about it anymore. And then have to be like, oh, crap, I'm not gonna die. Not, you've been given six months to live and you end up living a year. That's like, you know, it's different.
This is like a, any minute now, I'm gonna die. And I've decided that that's the way it's gonna be. And then all of a sudden, I know you're like, no, never mind, nevermind.
I'm just kidding.
[00:56:27] Speaker B: That whole moment you're talking about, I had it in my mind before I even got near to writing it. It was weeks and weeks and weeks, months before I wrote it. But I knew that I was going to have, you know, him learn, you know, the big twist, the truth of, you know, the false diagnosis, and he's going to be drunk, you know, because he threw all his weapons in the leg and, you know, he just gets drunk and, and waits it out and wonders who it's going to be. And I, before I even wrote the scene, I thought, what a cool scene. If he's going, this is a message from God, man. Drunk.
And he's going, this is a message from God.
God's telling me, Joe, you don't deserve to die.
You're not evil. You deserve to live. This is a message from God, you know, and, and then I wanted to write this line, you know, before I ever wrote the book I wanted to write, but he would have to think about that later because heavy footsteps coming down the hallway outside its door.
I just wanted, I wanted to write that line and then have it be the end of the first act. Turn the page. Part two.
Part two. I just, I wanted to do that, you know, and I ended up doing it. It's in there, you know, that's phenomenal.
[00:57:59] Speaker A: It's, it's like I said, I'm a big fan of the book itself, you know, I've been a big fan of all your stuff I mentioned before, which is stuff I read, your collaboration with Stanley and then the Walking Dead books and then obviously this. And you have other stuff out there that people should probably read as well. But I'm thinking right now, like, like this movie tie in trade paperback comes out a couple of days. Is it Tuesday prior to the movie? I believe it is, right?
[00:58:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be about. Yeah, yeah. About a month.
It comes out next week.
[00:58:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And so there's that. It's coming out ahead of time, and then it's obviously the audiobook. So if someone wants to actually get in there and read, you know, and read it prior, that's great. Going into the movie blind is also one of those things because there's both ways to do it. I think that going in the movie blind, not knowing anything, it's a fun way to experience it and then go, huh. I wonder how close it is to the original material. That's also fun.
[00:58:52] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
[00:58:54] Speaker A: And I think both sides. I do, I do. I don't think there's a wrong way of doing it, I think because, because if you do see that, read the book first going into it, you're like, well, I kind of know what happens. Like, if it's an adaptation of a novel, you're like, okay. In all likelihood, the ending is very similar to the ending, and I don't want to know what happens exactly. So I can see not reading it, but I also can understand the idea. You want to compare the two or get a, get a leg up on the, on going to see it and tell you.
[00:59:16] Speaker B: But I'm thinking the audiobook, you know, like, I, you know, I was really proud of the audiobooks for the Walking Dead. You know, we, we actually won some awards for those audiobooks. And the. You, I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but a lot of people in publishing believe that's where books are going. Going to audio. Audio will become kind of like, you know, the chosen format.
And again, for my 20 something kids, they listen to books. They don't read. They listen to them. So I think there is something to that, you know? And it's. So I really hope that a lot of people glom onto that audiobook that have seen the movie, you know? And I think you're right. I think it, it really doesn't matter whether they listen to the audiobook and then go to the movie or go to the movie and listen to the audiobook, it doesn't matter. They're two different versions of the same story, you know, and also, Budapest is like an amazing city. It's just so beautiful. It's just, I think it'll, it'll, it'll, you know, blow you away. How gorgeous this thing is. It's really a beautiful film, which is an odd word to use for us.
[01:00:39] Speaker A: And we mentioned, you know, the audiobook is a great way to take it in. And that's, it's also, you know, there's some phenomenal narrators nowadays, too. It's just not just someone sitting in a, like, oh, this is, you know, regulated. Like there's people who are, like, they're so good at doing it. And Will Dameron is reading the book. Obviously, you're in there. You're also considered a narrator on it. You read your, your part of it.
[01:01:05] Speaker B: Right.
[01:01:06] Speaker A: But Will Damron, who's, if anybody has read recently, anybody who's booked, I read the fully listened to, listen for the lie recently, which came out this year. And Will was a, was a narrator on that, too.
[01:01:17] Speaker B: That's his audition I heard. And I'm like, yeah, this is the guy.
[01:01:23] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.
[01:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, and you're right. Those, those people are going to become superstars in the future because these, these, this is going to be the medium that people are attracted.
[01:01:35] Speaker A: Sorry. But I just found out also that I'm excited about is that I was looking because I recommend anybody who wants to buy an audiobook. Libro FM is a great place to do it. We're not sponsors of the podcast, none of that stuff. But it's just, they support local bookstores. So when you buy from them, your local bookstore gets a piece of it. You also own the DRM free copy. So, like, you buy it, you can download it, you can put it on your own apps, you can do other things with it. This is not one of those things that if Amazon at some point loses the rights to the killers game you are, then audiobook is then gone. It doesn't belong to you anymore because you only own it as long as they own it in that sense. So Liberia weapon is worth it. But I was looking on there, you can click on the narrator and see what other books they're doing. And Will is also doing the John Jackson Miller Batman resurrection book that comes out as a sequel to the 1989 Batman film.
[01:02:24] Speaker B: I heard about that.
[01:02:25] Speaker A: So he's actually doing the narration of that book.
Phenomenal as well. So, so after the death of the Joker in, you know, the direct sequel to the movie.
[01:02:39] Speaker B: Film noir sound voice. To me, that, that's, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's, he's terrific.
[01:02:48] Speaker A: So now I'm all excited. Now I'm like, I was excited in the first place. Now I'm really excited because I'm like, I think this guy's guys worth listening to, so get to check that out, too. But, yeah, I mean, the killers game is back in print on trade paperback audiobook. The movie's coming out. I mean, you're like, you're a big fall here for you. And, you know, things like that. And obviously you're busy because obviously you're writing other stuff. Obviously some of the stuff you can't announce yet or tan't talk about yet because, you know, it's getting the hopper or whatever, but. But you've got stuff on the horizon. Right? Right.
[01:03:16] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
Three different books. Three different books at different stages.
Yeah. I mean, and also, you called it. You're spot on. I mean, you know, you try to, you try to take advantage of the heat if, you know. And also everybody in the business goes, hey, if the movie's a hit.
[01:03:41] Speaker A: You.
[01:03:42] Speaker B: Can go out and buy the Tesla.
But if it's not a hit, then it's all up for grabs. You never know if it's not a hit, if it tanks, you know, there's still somebody out there who's like, yeah, I saw, you know, I saw his, you know, they made a. They made a movie out of his book. You know, let's look at his next book. So it's all good.
[01:04:07] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I think for you also, I think in the same sense, it's like you want them to be like, that movie was wonderful because obviously it's your original idea and you want it to be wonderful, but it almost suffered for the, for the person who wrote the novel. Also, when the person that, when the terminology comes down or the sentence comes out, people say, oh, the book was better. It almost was kind of like a nod to you being like, okay, cool, I outdid the film. My book was better than the movie. You're right, because it's the original. Original writing was in a novel. And so. Yeah, so you want to be equal because you want the movie to be successful. But in the end, if someone does say the book was better than the movie, it's, you still win.
[01:04:41] Speaker B: So, like, I mean, if, you know, my. That's very true. Well said. Like, my, my, you know, um, sales pitch for the movie is even if you haven't read the book, you'll dig the movie. But if you have read the book, the movie is like reading the book on acid.
[01:05:10] Speaker A: There you go. And I don't even have to take acid. I could just go to the movies and see it. There you go.
[01:05:16] Speaker B: Seriously, that's awesome.
[01:05:18] Speaker A: That's, that's, there you guys, the sales right there to it. Go pre order your tickets. Seriously.
[01:05:22] Speaker B: That's my pitch.
[01:05:24] Speaker A: But it's fun. And so, I mean, are you going to do any, like, signings around this at all or are you just going to like, let it be in that the books are like, oh, yes, hell.
[01:05:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm going to do signings. I don't know the schedule yet, but yeah, definitely. Definitely.
[01:05:41] Speaker A: It's pretty cool.
[01:05:42] Speaker B: Yeah, we're going to have some, you know, premiere, you know, red carpet premieres and everything. It's really exciting. I mean, you know, it's a long time. A long time.
[01:05:54] Speaker A: I can imagine. As I said, a lot of people, I don't like to point it out, but, like, you must also be nervous. I mean, as you get this toasted. Like I said, now this is going to be seen by so many more people than read the book, probably. And now it's like your idea and someone's going to pick it apart. I don't read those rotten tomato reviews and things like that. Like, this story sucks. You don't want to hear that.
[01:06:14] Speaker B: It is nerve wracking. Because even if you see something and you're seeing it on a screener by yourself or if you're in a screening room with just two other people or something.
Yeah. I mean, it's a certain, you might love it, you might be confused, but the emotions that you're having, they totally change when it's in front of a crowd of strangers. You know, it's pretty fascinating. You know the difference. And so I really can't wait just to watch it with a bunch of strangers in an actual theater.
[01:06:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:06:52] Speaker B: Because it takes on a weird life of its own. Like it just takes on a life. It's this weird, you know, aura of having all these strangers eating popcorn in the darkest, watching something together, you know?
[01:07:09] Speaker A: You know, and knowing the person who wrote the actual original novel sitting next to them.
[01:07:14] Speaker B: Right.
Exactly.
Why is this guy crying?
That wasn't funny.
[01:07:22] Speaker A: Well, that's the worst part. When there is a joke in the thing and you're supposed to be a joke and it's from the book, it's almost a line that's directly from the book and then no one laughs. You're like, oh, is this how it's been for 30 years? People have just not laughed at that line when they're reading it. Like, this is not. This is not good. But, no, it's exciting. I'm excited. See it. I'm excited for 30 years in the making. I mean, I was. When you got this adapted or this purchased originally, I was eight. So there's that to you. I'm 38, so I wasn't even, like. I was not even on the radar of doing this, but so it's exciting to see that I was. I love the book. I recommend people buy it by the movie tie in. I am a big fan of the hardcover original copies. If you can find it out there, it's worth getting to. But I. And then also, I'm always going to pitch the Walking Dead series. Is there eight books that are worth reading?
[01:08:08] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:08:08] Speaker A: Audiobook. And I'm very proud of those.
[01:08:11] Speaker B: And I'm very proud of that. Seven years I was involved with them, and I wrote eight novels in seven years, and it was the greatest experience of my career, and I got treated like a rock star. And Kirkman was, you know, he was fantastic to me really well. And I, you know, and everybody's like, oh, Kirkman's a dick. He's, you know, you get. He's a monster. He's a, you know, and I was like, no, no, he's not. And I even said it to him one time. I'm like, why does everybody have this opinion of you that you're scary and you're, you know. And he looked at me and goes, well, Jay, if I didn't like what you were doing, I'd be scary to you, too.
[01:08:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. As I said, maybe they shouldn't like what you were, the person they were working with. It might be easy to. I could be mad at someone or not like someone, but they don't like what they're doing. And so, yeah, it makes it pretty easy.
[01:09:07] Speaker B: But, yeah, I think working with Romero is maybe what got me that job.
[01:09:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:09:15] Speaker B: You know, because I loved George. I mean, you know, when. When I worked with him, he had. We did. We did all our sessions at his house and, you know, with his wife, Chris, and they're just these sweet. They're old stoner hippies. They were really fun to be around, and he was just. He kind of is a certain kind of genius that I really miss, you know, having him around because always, like, trying to top himself and everything.
And if it wasn't for day of the dead. I'm pretty sure it's day of the dead. There wouldn't be a walking dead. I, you know, you know, George. George wasn't a fan of the Walking Dead.
[01:09:57] Speaker A: No, it's not.
[01:09:58] Speaker B: It was a soap opera.
And I think that was the genius of Kirkman. It was kind of a soap opera, but that's, that's, that's what, you know, I remember reading the first comic book and seeing, you know, the sheriff finding a horse and trying to get home and thinking about while he was riding home. And this is only like on page five of the first, 1st, you know, edition, the first comic. And he's thinking about the troubled labor that his wife went through to have his only child out of his son, and he's thinking about this stuff. And when I was reading that, I was like, this is special.
Something about this. This is, you know, amazing. It's an amazing take on a trope.
[01:10:53] Speaker A: You know, it meets a broader audience, too. And that's one thing I always explain to people. And I've actually, my defense to people who don't want to watch the show or read the comics or, you know, read the books, whatever. It's always like, it's more than just, it's, it's, it's world as we know it. If we lived in a zombie apocalypse, this is not like, I think some people don't watch Romero old movies. It was like, like he did that, too. I mean, that of the Living Dead is less about the actual zombie apocalypse that's going on the outside than what's going on in the house and then what's in the basement and the racism and other things that are going on in that, in that movie. However, it's a lot. And the zombies are what people focus on in those movies and George Romero stuff. And so with the Walking Dead, it was like, no, I mean, you go episodes where you see like a zombie or two walking around outside, and it's literally just people having conversation and trying to live. And what would you do in a world that your kids need to eat and, and so on and so forth? Someone else is trying to get to you. Would you kill that person? Would you? And that's more about the stories are about and that the zombies are just a vessel to, I mean, they need to have some sort of, if we were just living in a post apocalyptic world, the only problem out there would be the other people. This added another level to it. You also have zombies that could eat you and so on and so forth. It's a different thing, and I think that's why I've always loved the Walking Dead. I think that, you know, some people hated the more later seasons of the tv show and stuff like that. I'm a big proponent, and people probably are annoyed with me saying this on this podcast, but I am just happy that things are being created in the worlds that I love. Forget how good they are, how bad they are. If you don't like the new Star wars movies, that's your own prerogative. I'm just happy that we got those new Star wars movies. Like, it's not even whether they're good or bad. I got to live in the Star wars universe in the theaters once again, seeing these movies, and so. And they're not, if any, I like them, but if they're not horrible enough, that they're not watchable, and so people, it's one of those things. That's not the thing that they wanted. And so the future seasons of the walking, I didn't follow the comic book as much. They didn't follow stories that had already been created as much. And so to them, it was like, oh, that's not good. It's like, no, that doesn't mean it's not good. It just means it's.
I think that I want to read more. So if there's ever more walking good stuff that you ever want to write, I'm going to read it. And so that's what I've always said that about it.
[01:13:09] Speaker B: You are the person that Kirkman values the most, because, you know, he. I wrote four books with him.
He would give me outlines, and he would proofread my books. I would, like, just build them out and turn them into novels. But then after the four books, which was basically the rise and fall of the governor, he said to me, I think the fans are going to want to know. I think they're going to be really interested in. And what happened after everybody left Woodbury? Because they kind of leave Woodbury in the comic and in the tv show. And so he goes, you know, you're gonna write four more for us, but your one charge is basement and Woodbury.
[01:14:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:14:01] Speaker B: Woodbury will be the central, pivotal thing on those four novels. And it was all fan driven. That's why he wanted to do that. That's why he spent the money. He had me do it, and it was lovely.
And you just really echoed his whole gestalt.
He was a fan. He started out as a comic book fan.
[01:14:27] Speaker A: Now you can buy whatever you want. Comic books right because he's got more money than God.
[01:14:32] Speaker B: And also the Star wars thing, once in a while, the Mandalorian will come along. Something like the Mandalorian will come along. Like, this feels just like the original.
It just has that feel to it, I think, you know, if you live.
[01:14:48] Speaker A: In a universe for so long, too, I'm a big Marvel cinematic cinematic universe person. And, yes. Are we struggling as a fandom in there? Are they struggling to find that. That spark they had with Iron man in the original movies? Yes, they are. But when you make 30 something films in the same universe with a bunch of different people making it, it does have speed bumps and things like that. It's not going to be perfect all the time, and you are going to have Deadpool movie. Like I said, it was wonderful. And so, like, there's a. There's glimmers of hope in certain things. There's some people, like, in my opinion, DC hasn't made a good movie in years, so that's. That's a different story. But, no, there's this and the same thing with the Walking Dead. Like, there's so much walking dead that at some point, they're gonna stumble. You know something? The same thing with the. With Star wars. They're gonna fumble. But the big thing is to step back and sit back and go, what do they people want? What do we want? And so now we have. In the Walking Dead, we had have Daryl and Carol shows, and we have Negan and Maggie shows, and we have Rick and Michonne shows that are coming out that are like, okay, these are the people people want to see. Let's. Let's do this. Let's stop with this. What eleven seasons of the walking dead turned into, and the same thing with you. We left Woodbury. Let's find out what's going on at Woodbury. This is not. This town is. If you burned it to the ground and it never existed anymore, it'd be kind of weird to bring it back to life. But when they left, it was just. It was still there. And so there's this. There's this. What happened to the people that were there? You know? And so. And that's the thing. I'd love to see a prequel of niche. I mean, the Ricks people weren't the first people they attacked, so it would be nice to see what happened with Negan prior to Rick's people finding them or how Negan got to where he was. And there is the comic books, and there's these. Here's Negan and stories. Of, like, you know, flashbacks and things like that, but, like, in depth. And so, yeah, I'm a big fan of walking dead in a sense that I would love to see more, but I'm also, like, happy with where it is. And it's the same thing. Your novels, there's never any more great. Awesome. They're there. I can go back and read them whenever I want, but if there ever was more, I'd be like, cool, sign me up. I'm pre ordering now. And so on and so forth. And the same thing goes for your Stanley the devil's quintet. So, like, people should grab that, too. And there's a third one coming, right?
[01:16:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[01:16:53] Speaker A: Okay. It's a little ways out, though, right?
[01:16:55] Speaker B: Right? Yes.
[01:16:56] Speaker A: Okay. That's so sad. I thought I heard that there was a third one coming. I just didn't know. Okay. Just a little ways out. Okay, cool. But, yeah, those are worth getting to, so should pick those up. But, yeah, I mean, we could talk for hours if you wanted to talk about how awesome your stuff is. But I don't know. I mean, you're starting your head starting a little bit too big for the screen. I don't know if it's.
No, and I've said it. I said it a million times to people. I don't talk to people on the podcast that I don't like what they do. It's not someone who's being told.
[01:17:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:17:25] Speaker A: So I'm excited to talk to you, and I was excited to do this today, and I'm glad. Thank you so much for taking a time out to do it. I'm excited for the killers game in theaters. Back in trade paperback as well as an audiobook.
It's well worth picking up in any format you guys want to.
[01:17:41] Speaker B: Comes out on September 11 in theaters only, and then in October, a month later, it'll be streaming.
[01:17:51] Speaker A: That's awesome. Yeah, that's super, super cool. I think people should go to the theaters. I don't go often, and I understand why it's taking a dip in where you should go and what you should do. You know, if you have to pee in the middle of it, it's really hard to be like, I'm gonna miss part of the movie if it's at home. You can pause it and things like that. However, there is certain things that I feel like, you know, if you're gonna go once every couple of months, there's certain films that might be pretty cool on the big screen. But what you've said so far, it seems like this film might be pretty cool to see on the big screen with the big speakers.
[01:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely.
[01:18:23] Speaker A: It seems like an action packed movie that probably is gonna be want to be seen in the theater, so I would recommend that as well. And so. Yeah. Jay, I appreciate so much for you to come on here again and talk about your stuff. We're looking forward to more in the future. And best of luck, and get back to work writing some good novels, will you?
[01:18:40] Speaker B: I will. Yes, sir. Yeah, boss.
[01:18:44] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Jay.
[01:18:45] Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
[01:18:46] Speaker A: Absolutely. See ya.
