[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Capes and tights podcast right here on Capes and Tights.com I'm your host, Justin Soderbergh. Once again, this episode is brought to you by our friends over at Galactic Comics and Collectibles. At galactic comics and collectibles.com we welcome back Clay McLeod Chapman to the podcast to discuss his upcoming novel, shiny happy people.
We also talked a little bit about wake up and open your eyes which came out earlier in the year, acquired taste, which came out recently. And then next year he has two books coming out, including his horror romance book, the devil Inside that comes out next summer. But Clay, who writes books, comics, all kinds of things, is an awesome person and I'm glad he was able to return to the podcast to chat shiny happy people. But before you listen, check us out on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Blue sky threads, all those places you can rate, review, subscribe over on Apple or Spotify or wherever you find your podcast, as well as you can find a video portion of this podcast over on YouTube. And as always, check out capesandtice.com for so much more. We just completed last week our horror week. So check out all the horror fun things that we did on the on the website last
[email protected] but this is Clay McLeod Chapman returning to the podcast once again to chat shiny happy people. Enjoy, everyone.
How are you, Clay?
[00:01:26] Speaker B: I'm okay.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: You're okay? You're okay? I'm okay.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm okay.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: I'm.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: I'm hanging in there, man. I'm alive.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: You got your Jared Leto bird.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: That's what I got, your Jared letter bird somewhere.
He's up in my office.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: How often does this happen in my wife's office?
How often do you think this happens? For me, probably never or rarely. I mean, like my buddy who, who Paul Eaton, who's from Galactic Comics and Collectibles, who you met back in May when he comes on the podcast. I usually had seen him Tuesday and I see him, you know, I talked next Monday or something like that. And we were like, we can see each other, but like rarely. I would say this is episode like 253 or something like that. And rarely do I see the person I'm talking to have like within a week of when I say, so I saw you Wednesday in New Hampshire, which was fantastic.
And that's where the Jared little bird came from. If anybody ever, you had to be there kind of thing. But our buddy Jesse, who's been on.
[00:02:26] Speaker B: The what the heck are you talking about, bro?
[00:02:28] Speaker A: Jesse, who drew that, has been on the podcast, he was actually at Galacticon.
Yeah, he was like, you were on one side of our. Yeah, he was on the other side. That was the whole kind of like, point.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: He was like talking about, like, yeah.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it's amazing just to have him show up. It was cool. Like, I saw Matt.
Matt Morris from. From Instagram. Famous Matt Morris and I saw Jesse. It was a fun time. Gibson's is always amazing. They are a wonderful place to be. Right?
Do you agree?
[00:02:56] Speaker B: How far did you have to drive to get there?
[00:02:58] Speaker A: It's a three hour drive.
Well, let's see. But Clay, I'm from Maine. I drive 35 minutes to get to my office. It's like, that's like nothing. So like three hours is like, oh, it's whatever. People do it there and back. I didn't do it there and back. I spent the night. I got a hotel. I have a hookup for a hotel. So I got a good deal on a hotel and maybe one of these days I get a better deal if I start promoting the hotel.
Actually talking about the hotel. Like, I don't want to say what hotel was because I don't want to give them free. Free marketing. But like, it was a good deal. It was a good hotel. It was busy. I don't know why. It was a Wednesday night in like my. My parking lot to my. I couldn't find a parking spot. I almost had to park on like the grass in the parking lot. It was crazy.
But, yeah, it was.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: It's been a fun because everybody was there for the cj, Clay Chapman.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: Everybody was there to see Delilah S. Dawson. That was it. No one wanted to see either one of you two. It was. Let's be honest. Let's really be honest.
No, it was kind of funny because, like, I been to events there. I saw Christopher Gold in there at Gibson's and with Eric Nunnelly. It was phenomenal. That was a phenomenal event too. But I worked it technically because I did it for the beer for my brewery that I worked for. And so this one was great because I could just sit there and hang out and chat and watch Delilah's birthday cake come out and Jared golden or not Jared Golden, Jared Golden, Jared Leto, Bird getting drawn and see you and CJ and Delilah. It was an awesome time. So I'm glad it happened and I'm glad I went. And I was tired when I got back.
But I'll tell you what, it was fun. And I drove back to the White Mountains on Thursday. So I went up to the White Mountains and did that kind of thing and stopped at North Conway and did my own little vacation from the kids and the family and work and stuff like that. So it was good. Went to another bookstore. So it's 10 bookstores in two days.
[00:04:42] Speaker B: You're a sadist, man. You're a masochist.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: You're just like, I don't get to do it that often, so I have to do it all at one time.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Cram it all in.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: Cram it all into one thing. No, I like listening to audiobooks. So on the way back, I listened to Shit show, which was phenomenal. I mean, I don't know if you've read that yet. It's phenomenal. And then I also.
What did I listen to? I listened on the Way Down Guillotine by Delilah Dawson, which was phenomenal. And what else would I read on the way back?
I don't remember what I read on the way back now.
I don't remember. It is a long time ago. It was last week. What are you talking about? A lot of stuff happened since then. But we're not here to talk about my trip to New Hampshire. We're here to talk about how you're a veteran horror author.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Getting veteran.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: I'm old now.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Like, I've already, like, entered my. My kind of, like, golden years.
[00:05:34] Speaker A: Well, how many books did you say to C.J. that you had written when you're old? 30. 30? Are you up to 30?
[00:05:40] Speaker B: No, Delilah's up to 30. I'm. I'm just like.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: That's.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: That's. That's better in territory, young buck. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I think that you're getting up there and you're. An acquired taste. Like the pun.
There you go.
This is Lance's copy. This is the copy I stand for. Lance, who helps run Galacticon, he was very. He's like, you're going to see Clay. Give me. Get him to sign my book. So I will do that.
No, thank you. Yeah, you're a safe veteran because you have a number of. Adult horror author. I hate that term, adult horror because it sounds like you're writing porn horror, but adult horror author. And you're just about to release a young adult horror book.
So first of all, let's just start off so shiny Happy people is about what?
[00:06:30] Speaker B: That's a very good question. Do I have an answer?
It's like my.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: I wrote it so long ago.
[00:06:34] Speaker B: I don't remember Body Snatcher. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's Basically my faculty. My, like, high school spin on the pod people motif. The trope. Pod trope.
Imagine like a designer drug that's kind of sweeping in through high schools. And, you know, it's like the new party drug, and kids are taking it Snapchat and about it, getting on their social medias about it.
And there's this one girl, one young woman by the name of Kira, who is noticing a lot of her friends and family start to slowly succumb to this new, new thing that's kind of on the market on the.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: On the.
[00:07:25] Speaker B: On the street, and it's scary. Scary things ensue.
You like that, bitch?
[00:07:33] Speaker A: Yes.
That's great. I think it's a great explanation. I'll tell you right now. You know, the Body Snatcher trope in the first place is great. There's obviously movies, books, all that stuff about it.
I love that idea that it takes people a long time to. To understand, wait, this is not the real. This is not the real person. This is something different where I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, like, my friend Paul, speaking of Paul has an off day. I'm like, what's up with you, dude? What's going on? Like, what's good? But yeah, in. In, like, are you just, like, basically.
[00:08:01] Speaker B: Like, calling people out? Like, yeah. Are you a pod person? Like, you're acting differently. Are you. Are you a pod person?
[00:08:06] Speaker A: Now? I would like to think if I was in this book and I was in this story, that I would have noticed it before some other people noticed things. Like, I think it's one of those things that just takes some people a long time. And I think that's the suspension of belief for. For horror. And you have to, like, you know, like I said, I walk in there, if you really know someone, like, if I saw you, I don't even know you that well, but if I saw you on Wednesday and something was going on, I probably would know.
[00:08:26] Speaker B: I'd probably be like, you're a pop person.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. You might be. We don't know.
Maybe one of those things that we don't know. But.
No, that's awesome. I think that. My point, I guess when I was starting that conversation to figure out what was the book about, is that it's young adult. So where did. Let's touch on that really quickly as we get into this conversation. Like, um, you have a. You mentioned a person who just had a birthday, a son who had a birthday. You have. You have kid.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: You have.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: You have offspring.
Is that a thought? Process that goes into this, like, trying to like, gear some stories that are towards a younger generation. I mean, I have had this conversation with some people and I just had it with actually Ryan from, from Gibsons is.
I love the fact that I have some of my favorite horror authors like yourself, Chuck Wendig, Paul Tremblay, all writing books for different generations that I thought when I was growing up was basically like, you read R.L. stein and then you read Stephen King. Do you mean like there was nothing for like, legitimate. Again, I hate to say that like that because there are amazing young adult horror authors who are just writing young adult horror. That's what they do.
I'm more saying in the idea that I like to get to read Acquired Taste. I get to read Ghost Eaters when potentially someone, a young adult gets to read you, but more geared towards them. So where did this come from? How did this idea come to be and what made it say, I want to write something that's a little bit more young adultish?
[00:09:58] Speaker B: Well, okay, a couple things straight out of the gate. I remember, I mean, when I was growing up, there was very little ya. Like, it was, it was basically like you read, you read scary stories to tell in the dark and then you left straight to Stephen King. And I. And I love that, like, I love that, like, King is there. Like, I read him, I think, like, sixth, seventh grade, like, that was my kind of entry point into him.
But like, books that were written and published in the 60s, 70s, 80s, that were not considered YA would be considered YA now. And I think it's just like, they're all, they're like publishers, bookstores, they're just carving out shelf space that like, this is kind of. We're gearing this towards a targeted readership. And, you know, it's just a new place to put a book on the bookshelf and say, like, these books are for you. And I don't know how I feel about that, but it's, you know, I, I love that I get to write this book for teenagers. And I, you know, a company came to me and said, hey, would you be interested in like, writing for, for younger people?
And when someone says. Asks that to me, like, says, like, do you want to do something? My. My answer is just going to always be yes, because why the heck not, you know?
[00:11:30] Speaker A: Like, I feel like I have that experience with you. I feel like when I asked you to come to Galacticon, you're like, yeah, let's, let's do this. Tell me when.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: Yeah, life is short. You Know, like, what else am I going to do? Be a good dad, good person.
Like I'm just going to be like, I just want to like do stuff and tell stories and tell stories to, for people and I don't know, like the opportunity to do shiny happy people was someone else saying, hey, here's an opportunity, would you be interested? And for me it's just like, are you kidding me? Heck yeah, let's do this.
And just diving in.
Should I be allowed to do it? I don't know, but I'm gonna do it.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: Well, I.
So there's also the funny thing about like ratings and categorization like that. Like ya, I think there's positives and negatives. Adam Caesar deals with this a lot with, with Clown in the Cornfield. Because Clown the Cornfield in the series in the influencer book he wrote are like the most borderline to the age of 18 side of why, like it's like one small thing he could have done differently in that book. And it's like immediately adult horror influencers opening chapter is so like to me as a 40 year old man, like holy shit.
And, and that's like. So he deals with the idea of like not very many older people might be getting it because it's in the YA section. But I also see the idea where as a parent of someone between the ages of 12 and 18 bring a kid to a teenager to a, to a bookstore and we're like, oh, here's the section. You can we know for a fact that this section has been, you know, publishers and people and stuff like that have said this is good for you. So I can see that both sides of it. But also like when my. I grew up in a church, right, and my dad would have like movie night and they wanted to do movie night at the church for youth group and they wanted to like, you know, not just watch hey Jesus, this, that and the other thing they wanted to watch like pop culture movies or movies that would be a wider range, that would bring it in, they were appropriate. And for some reason my dad put Footloose, like as a movie because the rating like I don't think he did much research. He was just like, he's seen the movie and stuff, but he just, I don't think it clicked. And he's like, oh, PG, this would be great or whatever in PG 13, whatever. And it's like, well, they stick PG 13, you swear in it. Uh, there's like risque, like not full nudity, but you can like get like half naked Kind of thing. Like, it's one of those things where it was like, oh my God, this is not so. So. So there is that section of like, there is not like it's perfect. It still scare the shit out. Shredding, having people was frightening to me at 40.
So it isn't like it's like this perfect. When you get into horror, it's gotta be at least somewhat scary. And depending on your, you know, I can read books like by Eric Laroca and Hailey Piper, and I can also read shiny happy people and still get the same at a different experience, but a similar experience out of it.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: Can you imagine Eric LaRocca writing a YA or middle grade book? Like, that would be astounding. I wanted it.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: What did someone say to me the other day was like, it's like adult horror. But they remove some of the violence out of it and remove some of the sexuality out of it. And I'm like, so? So Eric LaRocca's YA book is three pages.
Eric just wrote the book. The title alone isn't this scary? We live in this world. I mean, that could be a book. Welcome to 2025. And that's it.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: You know, it's interesting that you mentioned like, what they withhold from YA or middle grade. But like, I, I've been recently reading a lot of middle grade fiction, you know, Paul Tremblay's book, which was great, but there's this, this new one that just came out recently called Broken Dolls by Ali Malonenko.
And it is scary. It is written for young, young readers, like fifth grade to seventh or eighth grade, like nine to like 13, 14.
It is terrifying because it can't do the gore or gratuitousness. It can't do the violence. It's. It withholds all of that. And in its place it, like, it's nothing but tension. It's nothing but suspense. It's nothing but the, like the dread of anticipation. And like, that's scarier. I think violence and gore ends up like getting in the place and, or getting in the way of actual tension, of actual like fear.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: So, yeah, well, you could make like super gory films or even books, they just have very, very, very descriptive killings and slashings and murderings and sexual assault or anything like that in it. And it's horror. But yeah, you're right, you can make the suspenseful uneasiness of it. I mean, let's be honest. Psycho, the book, in the horrors, even the movie, because the movie is basically like a motion picture version of the book. I mean, that's an adaptation that's basically almost word for word, in my opinion. But the. It's a very scary movie. But it's. If you were to put it up against, like, Terrifier or any of those movies from nowadays, like, it's a different type of fear. And it's really. I mean, to be honest with you, when you watch the movie, the killings of the. The knife being stabbed, like, going like this, it's, like, very corny. And like, to me, I'm like, oh, that's not very scary because I've seen Terrifier. But it's a different type of fear and a different type of horror. And I think that. And that's the place for. I think there's a place for it. That's why one of my favorite books of all time, no Joke, is Clown in the Cornfield. And it's not. I'm 40. It's not made technically for me. It's made for someone of the younger generation. However, it's really trying to have people. Is made for people as young as 12, if that makes any sense. Like, it doesn't mean that it's. Only people who are 12 to 18 will get something out of it. I think that you talk to anybody. I talked to Ryan from Gibson's. Any of these people, they're like, that book's scary, but also approachable. And I think that's where it's a horror book that also can cleanse my palette a little bit, too. Between if I'm reading Hailey Piper and then Eric Laroca, it's like one of those Clay Chapman, Shining put me in the middle of that. And I laugh because I went to a bookstore. I have my 10 bookstores I went to last week.
It's a used bookstore in Brunswick, Maine, called Twice Told.
And people donate their books. They sell the books, and then they donate the funds from the books to the library in Brunswick. And so over the past, I don't know how many years, they've raised a million dollars for the library through this bookstore. And they said, it's kind of funny. People actually buy books for $5 a hardcover. They'll read them and then they'll donate them back. So it's almost like a lending library that costs $5 to rent the book, which is awesome. But I was talking to the woman behind the desk, checking out, and I was going to see you, and doing this horror thing and so on and so forth. I had a Paul Dwarin book that I found there that I couldn't find anywhere else. It was stay hidden or whatever. Paul's a mystery thriller author from Maine writing about stories. This game warden in Maine who solves crimes and things like that. He reminds me, honestly, like, of like, a Mains 24 Jack Bauer, where, like, he gets himself into, like, these predicaments over and over again and saves the day. But. But Paul's like, on book 15 of this series. So, like, at some point, you're like, by book 15, you're like, okay, already. We understand that he's gonna save the day. No, they're great. I go, this is my palette cleanser. And she just laughed. She's like, you read a bunch of horror, and then you read mystery thriller as your. As your palette cleanser. You're like, okay, I got to tone myself down a little bit. I was like, yeah. I mean, I don't know. I live a. I live a life of wanting to be scared and thrilled, I guess. And so I need something to cleanse my palate. She's like, okay, whatever. To each his own. Some people will read romance to kind of cleanse their palette. I'm like, I'm gonna read a romance horror, I guess, next summer to cleanse my palette. Right, with your. Your newcomer. But yeah. So. Shutting up, people. I mean, it's so. I haven't. And we talked about this.
Is it harder to promote this book than your other books because of the YA attachment?
[00:19:34] Speaker B: That's a good question. And I mean, I'm still in a kind of like. I mean, this book is, like, two weeks out at this point, and I have no idea how the heck I'm supposed to, like, talk about this book, get this book out there.
I'm feeling a little bit on my own right now. And, you know, this is the third book that I'm putting out this year, which is absurd, but I don't know. Like, I want to believe this book is going to find its. Its. Its readers.
I'm at a weird place where I just kind of, like, present myself and hope that whoever comes out wants to buy the books that I have to offer.
I'm not so much kind of like, making the kind of tactical move of, like, this is how I'm going to promote this book.
It's basically, here I am. Here's the book. Come read it, please. And, you know, just hope for the best and just hope. Hope. Hope that word of mouth spreads and gets this word, this book out there.
Terrible answer, but no.
[00:20:42] Speaker A: I understand what you're saying. So that's funny how you mentioned three books. I mean I feel like so Saratoga Schaefer just posted something on their their Instagram about how they have three books coming out this in 2026 like January, July and like October. And it just happens stance like it was with two different publishers or three of publishers. It just happens. It's all in this issue.
Clarifying to people they're not going to come with books every three books a year. It's just not going to happen. It's just how it worked out and that it's not very common nowadays. That mean a book a year, maybe a second book comes out. Because if you book, you know, wake up and open your eyes, keep up and came out in January, right. So like you're talking like it's a chance it could have come out in December and it would have been a book last year kind of thing. But and this one's coming out in November so they're like it's like again pushing towards the end of the year.
But yeah, it's not typical but I don't think that you would have been able to do.
I think there's gonna be a built in audience as a whole who I mean Chuck Wendig and Paul Tremblay write some pretty scary books and I think that those books did pretty well. Another in Monster Movie because of the fact that I mean monster movie was 100% not made for me. But I love Chuck Wendig. So I bought the book and I'm a huge fan of RL style and that one to me had like massive RL STYN Goosebumps vibes to it. Like this one does too. I feel like these books that are in that all I can really relate it to is Goosebumps if that makes any sense. I understand Shortwave Press's killer VHS Sense series being related to Goosebumps for adults, but I feel like part of that's not just the stories themselves but the idea of the formatting of it, of the book, the collection of it that look the same, that kind of thing adds to this. But these books, I feel like there's this, this, oh this reminds me of my childhood. But when you read a Goosebumps books it's dumbed down. I hate to say that that way but it is, it's made for younger people where this is like you did write a story that you normally write a story, a horror story and then you maybe like I said didn't physically go, let's delete that line. But like you had yourself takes of any of the violence that was in Ghost Eaters, for example, or wake up and open your eyes and. And toned it down a little bit to make it so that, okay, we know it's presentable to 12 to 17 year olds.
Yeah. But I feel like. Have you built an audience?
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Did it, does it feel like it's toned down?
[00:22:54] Speaker A: I think if you were to read.
I don't do this very often anyway, I wouldn't read a claim of Cloud Chapman book three times in a row. Like I would always. Even if I'm planning Sam talking to you and I never read your stuff before and I'm like, I got to read Z. I'm talking to Chismar, the Chismar. So Richard and wh Coming up here soon. And I read Widow's Peak and I read the Wendy Button Buck series and stuff like that. But I was like, oh, I haven't actually read Chasing the Boogeyman and things like that. And I was like, oh, maybe I'll read Chasing and Becoming Right after each other. I'm like, I still can't do that. I gotta put someone else in the middle. Because I think it again, cleanses the palette a little bit. I think if you read Ghost Eaters and then read this shoddy happy people, you might go, oh, it's a little bit, you know, like, you know, there's a. There's a difference. But I feel like if you read you in the past and then are going to read this, I don't think you would. I don't think that if you didn't tell someone it was a young adult book that they'd immediately go, this is young adult. That it might just be that you're not, you know, writing sex scenes into it and you're not writing these massive.
Their head was decapitated and rolling across the floor kind of thing bleeding from the eye and crawling to their death or whatever, I don't think that you'd have.
I don't think people would notice it that much. I think that it's us that. That say it that way. And I think that the reason I even bring it up in this conversation is because I'm happy that it's in this category because of the future, because of my four year old years from now hoping that more adult authors write these books for younger generations so I can be like, let's read Kelly McLeod Chapman together. And I read Wake up and Open youn Eyes and he reads Shiny Happy People. That's where I'm kind of like excited about it. Outside of that I wish it wasn't a YA title because then you're right, you might do better. And I don't want to say it's going to do bad, but it might do better without the restrictions of YA on it. I don't know, it's hard to say. Clay. I don't think it's.
It didn't screen that it was ya. How about that? Does that work? Is that a bit, you know, can I, can you put that on the COVID now? It doesn't scream ya.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Doesn't scream ya.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: This is actually not terrible.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: I think the, the biggest thing about YA is that.
I think the biggest thing about YA is that it ends up just being about high schoolers. Like if your protagonist is of an age that is younger than say their twenties, like it immediately becomes something else. Like it's, it is now kind of categorized as, as ya, which is, it's interesting.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: But you know, I can see that.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: I just wrote about high school students doing some freaky things.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: I don't think so many people understand that. Like, I know what you did last summer. Like the Louis Duncan the first. The book that the movie's based on is a young adult book.
It's not like it's different. Obviously. The movie is completely different. Honestly, it's like I took the name in a small, like, oh, there was an accident, someone died and that was like what they took from the book. And the rest of it's just like we're gonna be the slasher. Because it's not a slasher really in the book. It's a slasher in the movie, but it's really not really a slasher in my opinion, in the book. But yeah, so like, if you think about it, you watch the movie, you're like, this is young adult.
And maybe you'd say the same thing about Clown in the Cornfield. You'd watch that movie and go, there's no way I'm showing this to a 12 year old. Like, you know, I mean, like, this is insane, but the book might be a little different.
But you're right, it's really the age you're writing about.
You know, I never really kind of put that together that like a 12 year old reading this book wants to hear about 12, 13, 14 year olds, not about 40 year olds. They're not going to relate to the person who's like been married twice and lost their job and you know, has to pay alimony and your child support. They're not going to understand that as much. They might understand that last Part because they obviously, you know, maybe their parents aren't together anymore. But yeah, a kid worried about math tests and being popular in school and who they sit with at lunch is more important than. Or what movie they're gonna go see on Friday night is more important than someone's like second Divorce. We'd read an adult horror. Yeah. And it's true. I mean, I think it's that you're right, which is cool. Like I said, I think the big thing to me though, the big takeaway is that like the future generations be able to read you and then get to graduate to reading Ghost Eaters and get, you know, like, like if Stephen King. Funny thing is Stephen King went back and wrote a book about a fairy tale which with the Hunzel and Gretel, he didn't go back and write some sort of young adult book. He went back and wrote something younger, which is again, still scary as hell.
That book is frightening. When I read that book, Stephen King.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: Is just basically mapping out.
And this is what we all want to do. We want to kind of like create a body of work that starts at a certain place and ends at a certain place. And, and whether it's chrono logical or not, you're. You're basically saying like, you can join.
[00:27:33] Speaker A: Me here, here or here.
[00:27:35] Speaker B: And they're out there for, for you if you want to kind of dive in.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: So I mean, with this experience was shining happy people, Body Snatcher style story based in this location, in this place, in, in this setting from the beginning, written with this idea of it being a YA book. Or was it like after you wrote the base idea behind it, you're like, oh, this actually could work in this situation. Or was there more to it than that?
[00:28:05] Speaker B: Oh no, it was, it was always going to be ya. It was absolutely going to be ya.
You know, the, the idea behind the book was, you know, this publisher, this company wanted to kind of like reach, reach this specific audience. And they kind of tapped me as an author of, you know, someone who's kind of written within this sphere, the adult sphere. And they're saying like, we think that voice, your voice would be great over here for younger readers. And truth told, it was because of Ghost Eaters that I even got the invitation.
Someone had read Ghost Eaters and said, we like what you do for older readers and we think you could do that over here for younger.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome. And do you think, you know, wake up in your open your eyes has a modern day real life horrors attachment to it? Right, we know that much that there's the fictional horrors that happen within the pages of the book. But, but there's also like odd nods and odes to the real life horrors that are happening in our world today. You do that in this too. I mean, obviously, I think the best horror stories are those ones where you're like brought into a fictional world, but also like, you have to pause for a second and go, wait, that's a real thing. So like you deal with opiate addictions in this and the trauma behind that and stuff like that. You have this, this former big tobacco town, that kind of thing. So there is this like place where even a 13, 12, 13 year old, 14 year old could sit down and go, I, I can relate to the world that I see around me. But also this is a fictional story. Is that was that important to put into the story as well? But that's who you are as an author, I'm guessing.
[00:29:52] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I, I mean, I think for me the Body Snatchers trope, like that idea is that metaphor, that central metaphor is something that can reinvent itself every decade, every generation.
I mean, stemming back from the 50s to the 70s to the 90s, maybe the aughts. Like, you know, you have to ask yourself, like, what is the value of a Body Snatchers trope right now? Like, what does it speak to in terms of our culture, our, our kind of society at large in this moment? And for me, thinking about the trope, I did think of the opioid, opioid crisis and fentanyl and just the, the idea that like, you can have a drug that is so powerful, so overwhelming that it literally changes your chemical composition, your brain patterns, your, your, your like, who you are changes from the inside out because of this thing that you're told is harmless and will help you. And that's terrifying to me.
So yeah, like, I, like.
[00:31:09] Speaker A: I, I.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: Wanted to write a Body Snatcher story, but it had to be about, there had to be a value to it. There had to be something kind of key or central to it that like, speaks to this particular moment. And you know, I shot my shot, so we'll see.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Do you. I mean, I hope it lands with people. It may not be big similarities or big connections or big, you know, comparisons, but I feel like there was a hint of it. And maybe again, because this book came out at the beginning of the year and years, but comes out now and I read them both in the same, within, within a year of each other, there's like, this is the younger version of wake up and open your eyes, like, in a sense that there is this, this other thing out, you know, and like, And I don't know, I don't know why I get. It's not like I want people like, these are connected or like this is like anything like that. I just think of myself like there's, there's something out there that is, you know, they perceive and send out there that it's good.
You know, it's the news. It's. It's. It's. It's worth telling the truth and all this other stuff. And then the bad shit happens, connected to it, and then the opioid part of it, same thing in that sense. And bad shit happens to it. I just, like I said, I don't. It's. You know, if my son was not 4, but he was 13 or 14, I'd be like, I could wake up, open your eyes, you can read shiny happy people, and we're happy and we're. We're getting Clay's, you know, view on the world and that kind of stuff. Like I said, it's just kind of funny how it is. And again, maybe it's just because they bookend the year and I'm connecting the two. If wake up and you open your eyes came up five years ago, would I even have thought of that? I don't know.
[00:32:35] Speaker B: Oh, my God.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: It's funny.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: Families together, families reading together, stay together.
[00:32:40] Speaker A: That's your, that's your whole point, right? That's that why. That's why you did this?
[00:32:44] Speaker B: Well, I mean, to your point about the connective tissue between wake up and open your eyes and shiny happy people, I don't know if I would draw the comparison because I can't imagine the parent who's like, now that you've read shiny happy people, you get to graduate to wake up and open your eyes. That is terrifying to me.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: Very terrifying.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: I do think that there's.
But there's something to be said about having a healthy distrust of what we're sold, what, what we're told on our screens or, you know, like, I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist here, but I do think there is something to be said about having a very sober minded, healthy apprehension to what we're fed, whether that's pharmaceuticals or news or, you know, you just have to trust the source a little bit more these days because there's some scary elements out there.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: And it's funny because I talked to some people out there. My brother and I have this argument all the time in the world of comics is he's a huge big two.
Spider Man, Superman. You know, he wants to read those people and he has like the more, you know, lesser known characters of that. So he's trying to. He's trying to tell himself that he's like fringe. But I'm like, do you read the big two? You really can't be fringe with the big two. It's not possible to be ready DC and Marvel and doing that.
But then I'm like, I'm over here. I'm reading horror, I'm reading mystery, I'm reading sci fi and all that stuff, but in the independent side of things. And a lot of those comics deal with real life issues based in this thing. So there are things that are real life things that we talk about and things that you deal with on every day you see driving on the street, but then they're fictionalized in horror story and things like that. And he's like, how do you do that? I read comics to a escape. I'm trying to escape the world we live in. And. And by reading Spider man and his troubles with school and with Mary Jane gets me to escape that. And I'm reading things over here. I'm like, but I don't know, I feel like I get more involved and I get more attached to and engrossed in a book that has this. I mean one. Like, I just did my. My favorite Blumhouse movies for the. For Horror Week. We did a. We did a. The top 15 of my favorite Blumhouse movies. And param. Paranormal Activity falls on that. That list. Because when I left that movie, I was sitting in my car and so I walked behind the car and I jumped out of my seat. They were just walking to their car, Clay, like they were just going. They were leaving the movie. There was a bunch of people in the parking lot. But because of the fact that when you left that movie, you had this underlying feeling that it could be real. Like there was this like this sense of like this person's all security camera footage. It's just put together in a film and sold you in a theater. But in the end you're like, if you believe in the paranormal, this could be a real thing. And then someone else goes over here goes. It's also security camera footage of what it's like to own a cat. I was like, well, okay, that's. That's too like. I understand that too if you have a cat. And then a lot of the same habits, but the books like that deal with something like opioid crisis or what the news is telling us or things like that.
Makes me feel like, okay, I'm living in this world. This is what the world's like. And some crazy shit happens. And I know in the end I finished the book. I'm like, this is fake. This is fiction. I don't have to worry about it. No one's actually going to be coming to my house. And, you know, I don't have to worry about leaving the lights on. But there's something to say about that. There's something about, like, the real world, horrors mixed with fiction. And I just attached to. I really like.
[00:36:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I feel like that is what the vehicle of the Body Snatcher metaphor is for.
Like, red scare, the 70s hippie, kind of like post hippie kind of like me generation, or what is it? Whatever. I'm blanking on the name of it. But like. And then like the 90s, kind of, like, happy, like, kind of coming out of the Reagan era, like these, like. The Body Snatcher trope is so durable that it. It really adheres itself to each generation's, like, societal malaise. And I think the opioid crisis is ripe for this particular metaphor. And I just went for it.
And I. And I think, like, just think of, like, the next generation's Body Snatcher metaphor. Like, what will. What will be the next one and the one after that, much the same way as, like, Night of Living Dead, Day of the Dead, dawn of the Dead, like, all of those, like, living dead genera, like, like, zombies are perfect for it. Body Snatchers are perfect for it. Like, what are. What are we feeling right now? Let's talk about it. But let's do it with this. This candy coating of a monster or some sort of metaphor that allows us a chance to kind of, like, speak to these societal ills in a fun way.
[00:37:52] Speaker A: And it worked. And I think that, like I said, I absolutely loved it. I've been telling this book as much as I can to people who I can talk to. And we'll repost. When this episode releases the day before, we'll probably repost the review again on social media because I want people to read this book and I want people to know, again, it's young adults. But we mentioned a little bit on there, and again, I want to reiterate the reason why I like that it's young adult is because you're writing for a new generation that might not be. Again, if your book was next to Ghost Eaters, some parent might be like, you're not reading any of that author. I am sorry, but because it's in that young adult section, parents might be a little bit more open to it. And I think that's, you know, if they had that. There's a spinner rack in my local comic book shop that's for, like, kids comics. But it's like, again, it's kids comics, and then the rest of the comics are just there. But if a parent walks up and sees an X Men comic and next to a Deadpool comic, some parents might not know. The Deadpool comic's probably not for your kid or your young adult, but. But the X Men comic might be. And I don't think there's enough delineation in comic book stores in that sense for that. It's like they're kind of like, I don't know what to do. But in the bookstore, at least you have that now. I think you have that ability that you could do this. And that's why I like it. What I don't like about it is that I want all of my people that are around my age to read this book because it's for you, too. And I want that to be reiterated to people that, like, if you like horror books from Clay McCloud Chapman, you're going to like this book, in my opinion. And I want people to do that. And not just for your books. I mean, because someone might not like your books, other books, but they might like this book. So. So give it a shot.
[00:39:19] Speaker B: But.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: And that's what libraries are for, right? If you don't want to risk spending money on a book that you might not like, rent it from the library and take it out of the library and do that if you need to.
But no, I think that there's.
It's also for those people who want to try. I think a young adult might be the place to start. If you don't know horror and you don't like horror or haven't tried horror, it may be. Maybe that's a place to start. Because it is one of those ones where you're like, you don't have to be as.
It's tense, but you don't have to be emotionally frightened by gore and blood and sex and things like that. Because I know there's some people who don't want that.
Do you agree or am I. Am I off base here?
[00:40:04] Speaker B: I.
[00:40:05] Speaker A: You disagree completely.
[00:40:07] Speaker B: I don't. I mean, like, I.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: It's funny.
[00:40:09] Speaker B: Like, I have a weird.
No, I have, like, a weird vibe with. With violence. And gratuitous.
Gratuitous gore. Like, I know this is not going to hold any water for you or anyone listening to this, but, like, I. I am squeamish. Like, I don't like too much.
And the books, like, wake up and open your eyes is a little bit of an exception to me because that book had to be extreme and kind of gratuitous.
But I don't like going there as a personal choice. Like, I'm way too squeamish when it comes to that stuff, so.
[00:40:52] Speaker A: Well, if you're writing it, though, isn't it slightly different because you know it's coming?
I mean, you know it's coming, so it's kind of like when you're writing it versus when you're reading it. It's like one of those things that, like, I mean, do I know it's coming?
[00:41:05] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:41:06] Speaker A: I don't know. It's different. But, yeah, I understand what you're saying. You're right. You're right. It's not that in there, but, like, there's creepiness to it that. That, like, I. I'm bringing up Ghost Eaters because it's one of your. My favorite books by you. And when I read recently again, before I was seeing, you know, I just kind of was like, I'm in a Clay McLeod Chapman mood. I need to read this book again. I listen to an audiobook, which was. Which was phenomenal, too. I mean, I'm a big fan of audiobooks. And. And this Shiny happy people have an audiobook coming, too. Is that my.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: All right.
[00:41:34] Speaker A: Yes, it does.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: There's one coming.
[00:41:37] Speaker A: Let's see. Look at that. Or at the same time, November 11th.
I'm not gonna. Dominique Salva Sion.
I can't. I'm not gonna say their name.
But that's the. That's the narrator of the. Of the book. But, yeah, so I think that it's, like I said, it's a. It's a place for someone to. To kind of.
There's a spot for it. Clay. I think that's what I'm kind of. Kind of trying to say is that you're. You're. By doing this. You know, I compared Daniel Krauss's, you know, backlog of books that there's, like, they're in so many different places that there's different people that can. They can reach to. And I like the fact that you're within the horror genre still, but you're like, okay, I'm gonna do this. You have your short stories books like Acquired Taste. You're do this and you're doing this young adult book and you're doing a horror romance coming out this summer or 26. Like you're meeting people.
Talk to Becky Stratford the other day about meeting people where they are. And I think that's kind of cool too. It's like you're. You're putting your tentacles in all these different places that. That. That can reach other people. Because, you know, maybe if you just stage within the same lane, it might not be. You might not reach as many people and people won't get to read your, you know, tremendous works. And this is cool. I like it.
You mentioned promoting the book. I want to quickly get. We're almost finishing up here, but I want to. Promoting the book.
Are you doing events for this book?
[00:42:59] Speaker B: A couple, not a lot. I've got an event at the Twisted Spine. We're doing like a book release there, which will be fun.
And you know, I am doing a couple events, like maybe up and down the northeast corridor, but for the most part, like, I am.
I mean, I would go somewhere if.
[00:43:21] Speaker A: Someone wanted me, but like, I just.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: At this point, like, I feel like I'm just like, hello, is no one out there? Does anybody want to read some books?
[00:43:31] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I guess it would be. Is with three books in one year, too, it's hard to say you're promoting a book too. Like, if you're going to do an event in December somewhere, it's like, what's going to be there is on a table, is going to be wake up and open your eyes.
You know, acquired taste and shiny. It's like you're not doing it. A book. Maybe a book for shiny people. But, like, people are gonna be able to buy it at your events. It's the same. Like at your event, you had a bunch of books on that shelf at Gibson's. It's not just acquired taste because you were there. That was the most recent book you were doing. And so there's that too. If you have a book a year or a book every couple of years, it kind of has to be surrounding that same. That's that book and this one might be just piggybacked onto any other events that you do. Here you go, guys. Read this book over here. It's nice and shiny.
[00:44:14] Speaker B: It's very shiny.
I do think that, like, the. The people who write one book a year and stick to that one book a year and just like, pound that book for that year. Like, that's Smart thinking. That's shrewd.
I'm not smart and I'm not shrewd. And I'm just like, flailing like a madman, just trying to, you know, beg people to pay attention and look at me, look at me, because I don't know what else to do. I don't know what else to do.
[00:44:47] Speaker A: I will say too, that a young adult also puts it into a slightly different price category. So for those people over here trying to, like, you know, be frugal with their money, and I have to buy three Clay McLeod Chapman books in one year, you save me a little money at the end of the year there. It's pretty good.
Well, it's always, like I said, like one of those books, perfect for Christmas.
Yeah, exactly. I've always said that, like, someone's like, oh, it's a paperback copy. I'm like, cool, it's 1799. Great. I don't have to pay the 30. I mean, I just had to buy king sorrow for $40, so.
Oh, my God.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: But books are getting so expensive.
[00:45:19] Speaker A: It's so. But I felt like, you know, it's funny, but I was like, I. It is, but so are comics. And you dive into that world too, and they're getting more expensive and cheaperly cheap. Cheaply made. At least, at least books to me are still made the same quality they have been for a couple of years. Like, like the book, like, quiet taste. Feels like you get it, it's worth 30 bucks. You know, like you'.
Nowadays, the comics is 499 for. For. For what it originally was a throw. It's not a throwaway item anymore, but it used to be. And I feel like they're getting back to worse than they were when they were a throwaway item and their collectibilities to them. So there's certain publishers out there who are charging a little bit more, doing hard. I got a cover stock and nicer pages and things like that. But like, it's. It's a weird thing, but I, you know, it's at least you feel like, again, quality if you get a hardcover copy. Like, this is going to last a while.
Like, I can build to last. I can hold the door open with this one if I need to.
Actually, this window over here. But my desk doesn't stay open. So I'm just gonna take a quiet taste and put it so that it stays open.
Can't do that with a paper bag.
No. So I'm finishing up here. So that's. I'm so happy. So November 11th is when shiny happy people hit stores. I think everybody should buy it. I think it's a wonderful book. A body snatcher style story that deals with opioid crisis as well. In my opinion, it's for all ages over the age of 12, but it's great. Again, if you have someone between the ages of 12 and 17 and you're looking for something cool to get them, maybe for Christmas, it's good time of year for that. It's worth buying in my opinion because I think it's wonderful. Then you can read it with them. If you're like, that's kind of a cool thing too. You could buy a copy for yourself and for your young adult. How about that? So there's two copies sold.
[00:46:57] Speaker B: Hopefully that's the ticket.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: That's the way to do it. Maybe you can sell them. That's a way to do it in the future is to sell them in a pair of like a pair. You have to buy the two copies. It's like instead of 20 bucks a.
[00:47:07] Speaker B: Copy for mommy and daddy and for.
[00:47:09] Speaker A: The kitties, the hardcover and the paperback. No, but are you going to write comics again?
Yeah, if you want.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: Someone invites me to.
Yeah, like at this point, it's more about, does Marvel still have my number?
I would do it in a heartbeat. I'm just waiting for someone to say, oh, who was that guy who wrote that thing? We should maybe try to get him to do that thing again.
Which probably means it's never gonna happen.
[00:47:42] Speaker A: They forgot to put. When they called you called them and your number was in the system and they forgot to put your number in their phone. And so it's there. So if they search for Clay, they'll find you. But it's not like you only have to message you. If you text you and be like, hey, this is Justin. Just to verify that you know that who this number is. Because I know you probably didn't save it.
That's what you have to do to Marvel. Hey, this is Clay.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: New phone. Who disappeared.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: It would have been even a crazy old author. Wait, you were old author.
[00:48:08] Speaker B: Who dis.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Because you're. Wait, you did your trade. Your trade came out this year too. So technically you had four books that came out this year.
The Trade of Sans and this island came out this year as well.
[00:48:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:18] Speaker A: Which is.
[00:48:19] Speaker B: God bless it. I love that one. I missed that one. I wanted that one out there.
[00:48:22] Speaker A: Oh, Dark Horse. You need to do some for. You need to do independent too, maybe. We got a movie coming out for Ghost Years. What about an adaptation in comic book format.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: God, I would love it. I mean, if someone wants to do seance in the asylum, like, please, please, please. Like, that was built for film.
[00:48:39] Speaker A: Film. Yeah, exactly. What did I just read? Oh, Sisman Kurdansky, who. Who we used to draw for Spawn with Todd. He has his own book called no Man's Land. And literally, like, five out of, like, the 20 reviews that was out for this. The first issue was like, this was made for tv. It was like. And he, like, posted something with all of it. I'm like, yeah. Is he saying that? Because it's like, hey, anybody out there, you buy my. Buy my book for TV or. Or whatnot? But, yeah, it's.
I like comics. I like books. Like, everything. As long as you're writing something, I'm happy. So I have to wait until next summer to read your next book? That's. That's fine. I understand.
But we'll get there. You have one book.
[00:49:20] Speaker B: It'll be worth the wait, man.
[00:49:21] Speaker A: Is it one one in 2026? Is that the plan? Or two? Two.
[00:49:27] Speaker B: Two.
I got two. One's a novella that comes out in April called Bodies of Work, which is a really weird head. Geez. Serial killer book.
And then Devil Inside, my horror mance book comes out in August.
[00:49:46] Speaker A: Bodies of Work, huh? Where's that coming from?
Titan. Titan. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Oh, you got your Jordan Peele cover quote on there.
[00:49:56] Speaker B: I love it. Will not let go of that quote. I swear to God. It's a. It's a blessing, but it's, like, popped up on three books now. And I'm like, guys, people. Like, if people will suffer, I.
[00:50:11] Speaker A: It's. It's this. To me, what I'll compare it to is when someone goes, what Was that quote? 4. What book was that originally on?
[00:50:19] Speaker B: You don't wake up and open your eyes.
[00:50:21] Speaker A: Okay, so. So a year or two from now, someone's like, okay, that book came out in 25. Like, okay, we need to, like, we understand. It's the same thing. If I go to a restaurant was, like, voted best restaurant 1998. Okay? It's 28 years later, you're a different restaurant than you were then.
More people have reviewed your thing. Or maybe they haven't. I don't know. Maybe no one's like your book since that quote came out.
No, it's. It's true. It's awesome. But, hey, you know, I mean, I. Jordan Peele, I.
Someone. I guarantee you, someone gets a quote from Stephen King, and they'll never stop putting it on anything they do. I've known people who have been compared to other authors who will stop, won't stop using that quote because it's like, well, I'm the next Clay McLeod Chapman and, and people need to know that. So hey, it is what it is.
[00:51:08] Speaker B: People have been stupid enough to like.
[00:51:10] Speaker A: The back of their books.
[00:51:12] Speaker B: So I, I just want to go on record as saying if anyone out there says they want to be the next me, I would, I would encourage you not to because that is not a selling point. No one that is like, you may lose readers more than you will gain.
So find another folk to, to glom onto because man, oh man, I'm this for your sake more than it is mine.
[00:51:37] Speaker A: You like writing an email email back to your saying, can you please not put that on the COVID Don't do that. Please don't do that. I don't want that.
No, I don't know. I, I, I enjoy. You're a multifaceted person. You're very good at speaking and going to your events is a lot of fun. Reading your books is a, is amazing.
I enjoy talking to you and having conversations with you. I appreciate you taking a break from writing your next, you know, award winning book to, to come in here and chat with, with me on the podcast and I, I will see you again because you're everywhere.
So there's that too. And I'll be a, a crazy person. Hit like 15 bookstores because I'll come to New York City at some point and I'll hit like 15 bookstores on the way there because it's further away. Do an event with down here with.
[00:52:26] Speaker B: You, but make the pilgrimage. Come on down.
[00:52:29] Speaker A: I am, my parents live in Connecticut so it's a little easier. I could just go there and then come down that way. So it's, it's a, there's a stop on the way and I could drop the kids off on the way and not have to have that with me. No. But my wife and I went to New York city last in 2022 and we got coveted.
So thank you, appreciate it. No, I didn't get it from New York City. We actually got it. My son had swimming class the morning of our trip to New York City and someone there must have had it because we ended up testing positive at the end of the week that we were there. So obviously it was like a, it was taking time to grab hold of us and we got our vacation in and then we ended up having to take another vacation afterwards. We were off work for two weeks because of it. But yeah, so I'll be back. It's fun. I like New York City.
But hey, guess what? Our time is up here. Clay and I appreciate everything that you do in the world of horror.
You're a voice of horror right now as much as you don't want to hear that.
And I'm glad you took some time out to chat with us here on the podcast and we'll definitely have you back on in the future. Does it sound good?
[00:53:36] Speaker B: Thank you, Justin. You are the best. I love you. This is the voice of horror coming at you live.
[00:53:46] Speaker A: That back. I don't want that to be the voice of horror.
[00:53:50] Speaker B: This is the future of horror speaking to you.
Thank you for listening to me.
[00:53:57] Speaker A: The voice of nightmares right there. Thanks, Clay. Appreciate it very much. November 11th grab shining, happy people.
Thanks, Clay.
[00:54:06] Speaker B: Thank you.
